7mm mag and bergers for canadian game

[Fiftydriver]

You do not have me figured out at all, obviously, from your comments. posting that its just fine to shoot a 105 gr VLD at a bull elk at 80 yards from a 6-284 and then defending that speaks volume for you my friend.

I build nearly 100 rifles a year. Most of my customers contact me wanting to build one of my Allen Magnum. By the time we have discussed what will work best for their needs, I build conventional chamberings 5 to 1 compared to my Allen Magnums.

NO super magnums are not needed but adequate chamberings with proper bullets are. If you think a 105 gr berger VLD is adequate for bull elk at 80 yards thats your problem. I just want everyone that reads this that does not know better to understand, that is not a good thing to do, YOU GOT LUCKY and if you do this enough, you will have a catostrophic failure and loose a severely wounded animal.

Just because it works once does not mean it should be posted as something that works great all the time which is how most will take it.

I build far more conventional sized rifles then magnums. You have no idea anything about me or what I recommend to others so do not pretend that you do because you only make yourself sound silly when you do it.

When people contact me I spend hours with them before I ever recommend a chambering. I find out how they hunt, I find out what they hunt, I find out where they hunt. I find out how far they want to be able to reach out to, I find out how close of a shot MAY arrise and then I recommend a combination that WILL work every time if they do their job for the information they have given me.

I have talked hundreds of hunters OUT of my 338 Allen Magnum in favor of my 338 Allen Xpress. I have talked hundreds of hunters out of my 388 Allen Xpress in favor of something like a 7mm WSM or 300 WSM.

That said, my HUGE magnums have less recoil then a 270 sporter weight rifle. Recoil is not an issue, EVER. They are very easy to shoot, much easier then factory rifles.. My 7mm AM has dramatically less recoil then your 6mm-284 and thats with a 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3500 fps.

You have nothing figured out but the more you talk, the more we learn which is always the case on line. The more heated folks get, the more their true colors show and their true experience comes out. I have nothing to hide from my experience or recommendations in ANY WAY. My recommendations WILL work and WILL work every time if the hunter puts the bullets on the mark. You can not say that about your recommendations, no way you can.

Again, I go back to protecting the new members from bad advice and my point still stands very true inspite of your rants, infact it has grown stronger.

 

[Fiftydriver]

The specific numbers I offer are with my wildcats but you can take any velocity range from any chambering and get the same results. In a hard spot, the Accubond will plow the road better then the paper thin jacketed bergers.

Does not matter, take a 7mm-08 at 2700 fps, a 280 Rem at 2900 fps, a 7mm Rem Mag at 3000 fps, a 7mm STW at 3100 fps, a 7mm RUM at 3200 fps, a 7mm AM at 3400 fps, does not matter, in a difficult situation, the Accubond will survive better then the Berger. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAGNUMS but thanks for trying to turn this debate into that.

Hell, I have taken dozens of deer with a 22-250 with 55 gr Hornady SP bullets. Never lost one, never needed to shoot one a second time. Do I recommend this for the new hunter, certainly not, its not responsible to do such a thing when I know that there is a larger chance that things COULD go bad compared to a more appropriate chambering.

We should do a survey here on LRH, question being which combination would be better for elk at 80 yards:

a. 105 gr berger VLD loaded to 3400 fps

OR

b. 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3500 fps

Do not even put a designation on the chambering. What do you think the results would be, 10 to 1, 20 to 1, 50 to 1 in favor of the 7mm Accubond. Sit down and think about it before you get puffed up, your arguement is borderline insane and if you can not see that, just proves my point more.

Nuff said on my end unless you want to push this into a deeper debate. I am not trying to offend you, I am trying to protect new members and thats it. I could care less if you agree with me but offer realistic, practical options, not SHOOTING ELK AT 80 YARDS WITH A 105 gr BERGER VLD AT 3400 FPS!!! PLEASE.

Yes, be responsible with your comments and drop the ego.

If you would like to test this lets do a poll!

 

[pyroducksx3]

Well I have had a few email conversations with kirby and you may be surprised but he was recomending to me the 280 for my purposes, last I checked not a magnum. He does like to push the envelope for velocity but I dont think he crams magnum down your throat. Also he is not the only one that has had expierence with the bergers not performing ideally at close range or with certain placement, its been pretty well covered that they may not be well suited to high velocity/ close range shots. Maybe you have a great deal of expierence and have had you own trials and errors with hunting results. So points taken for me 1) there are many people out there with much greater shooting expierence than I and more than likely know what they are talking about. 2) we should listen to things learned by these people. You may have had good results with the bergers , good for you, maybe you are responsible and take shots that are ideal for the bullet because you understand the limitations of what you are using. Other people on here new to hunting might not understand these limitations and mistake your comments as "this is the bullet" I dont think people are intentionally creating this perception, but this is the point kirby is making I think. The bergers are good bullets but they have limitations, if you cannot recognize that any bullet has limitations than you are just innept. I dont think this is the case, you just might disagree with how effective or what the limitations are of this particular bullet. He never said it wouldnt work just that there is a large margin of failure, which is unethical and unfair to the animals we hunt.

 

[Shooter264]

I am not yet offended at all. I have offered my opinion that a VLD bullet is perfectly fine for Canadian game. You, my friend are the one that started taking cheap shots at my opinions. I do not in any way promote unethical hunting or shooting. But I don't buy into the bonded bullet and magnum rant either. I would rather see someone shoot something that they are comfortable with and can shoot accurately. If that is an Allen Mag with a muzzlebrake more power to them. I respect your opinion (although I might not agree with them) and never took a shot until you took one at me. I also stated that what I thought might not be the best option for everyone ( I think this covers the less experienced and new to LRH) but I would continue to shoot VLD's. You are right I know nothing about you other that what you have posted here, but it works both ways. Good luck with the Allen Mag's and I hope you build another 100 rifles this year. If you do have any hard evidence that you can share with the forum, by all means share. We all are up for an education once in awhile. But until then opinions are just that, I will respect yours and disagree with you and you can do the same with me.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Let me be clear. Hunting at long range comes down to one thing, putting the bullet through the vitals of a big game animal at the range you decide to pull the trigger at.

There are thousands of combinations of rifles, chambering and bullets that will do this for most of us. Whats the easiest way to hit a small target at long range, drive a high BC bullet that is heavy enough to cleaning penetrate the target animals vitals and expand at the range we are shooting at.

The higher the BC, the higher the velocity, the shorter the time of flight of the bullet.

This means the larger margin of error us humans have when we try to judge conditions in the field. THe larger the margin of error, the more we can be off and still put that bullet into the vitals.

For this, looking at shear ballistic performance and nothing else, large magnums with heavy, long, high velocity bullets are hands down the best choices.

If your shooting into the 2800 to 3300 fps muzzle velocity range depending on chambering, the Berger bullets are about as good as they come when targeting big game at ranges from 600 yards and beyond. Why, they have a high BC, they expand easily at lower velocity and they shoot extremely well.

No arguement from me of any kind. If you are long range hunting in this velocity range and yardage range, the bergers are impossible to beat as you can generally pick your shots and wait for a good shot presentation.

I do not believe that any berger smaller then 7mm should be used on big game at long range, nother story. But for dedicated long range hunting, in these velocity and yardage ranges, very hard to beat the bergers and thats why I also use them.

BUT!!!!

If there is potential for closer range impacts. The Berger bullets simply have proven that they can and do fail to penetrate heavy targets with enough depth to get into the vitals, at least enough to stop the game animal within a relatively short distance from the impact site. I am not bashing the Berger bullets, I am simply stating factual results.

I would love to hear what the Berger techs would have to say if I asked them if they recommended the 105 gr Berger VLD 6mm bullet for bull elk at sub 100 yard ranges when driven to 3400 fps. Any quesses on what they would have to say. I would guess it would be no, or more accurately, "HELL NO, DON"T TRY IT!"

I am not pounding berger bullets. I am saying use bullets where they are at their best. A Berger bullet is an extremely specialized bullet design, it IS NOT an all around big game hunting bullet, it will not be ideal in all shooting conditions, in fact it will be less then ideal in most of them.

When used correctly, no better, when used incorrectly, no worse. Keep that in mind. A Speer 150 gr SPBT is never even mentioned here on LRH for big game hunting. In spite of the fact that it has a much heavier jacket then any Berger bullet and will retain more weight then any berger of similiar weight also.

Use common sense. If you do not know the exact situations you will be hunting in, use a bullet that will work for all purposes, not one that is best at only one type of hunting. Its better to give up a bit of ballistic performance to gain terminal performance. If that common sense approach can not be seen by those arguing this point, we might as well stop here as they will not see reason in the arguement no matter what is said.

I am done with the arguing, if we want to debate, no problem but bring something substantial to the table, not extremes that have works at one time or another. that helps no one and just starts fights. If I have offended I apologize to CPGfan and others. That was not my intent but I had to bring this up for the new members that maybe reading these posts.

 

[Shooter264]

Well said. However, it was us, the LRH, that first clued Berger in that their bullets were good for ethically taking Big Game. Berger had no clue until probably 4 years ago when the VLD craze started. Some of us have been ethically taking big game with VLDS since the days when Jimmy Knox was still making one spectacular bullet at a time.

 

[jwp475]

Well said. However, it was us, the LRH, that first clued Berger in that their bullets were good for ethically taking Big Game. Berger had no clue until probably 4 years ago when the VLD craze started. Some of us have been ethically taking big game with VLDS since the days when Jimmy Knox was still making one spectacular bullet at a time.

What makes you think they didn't have a "clue"? Cup and core bullets have been used for many many decades

 

[Shooter264]

Go back and do your research. John Barness ( I think that's how you spell his name) did a write up in Handloader magazine and interviewed Walt Berger. Walt stated in the article that he did not realize his bullets were good for hunting. That's when they went to New Zealand and shot stag to test their bullets. If they did know, why have they only been promoting them for the 3-4 years.

 

[Fiftydriver]

How long has the 300 gr SMK been THE long range bullet for big game hunting that all others have been compared against, ALOT longer then any berger and Sierra still will not come out and say you can use their bullets to kill any big game.

I am with you 100% for berger bullets, WHEN USED PROPERLY.

Now obviously, in standard chamberings, which are not as hard on match bullets, performance is better no doubt.

I talk alot about my personal experience with my own personal rifles because that is what all of us do. All my personal rifles are chambered in my Allen Magnums, no surpise so I have seen some bullets fail when most others have never seen anything like that. I have tested bullets to their breaking points simply because I had to so that I could learn what would and what would not work in my chamberings.

IF a customer does get one of my rifles, I HAVE to offer then solid data on what will work, and when it will work and when it will likely not work. That is MY responsibility since I am offering these high performance chamberings to the public.

If I tell them a 180 gr Berger is a great choice in the 7mm AM and that bullet blows up on an elks shoulder at 50 yards, I am going to get my *** chewed by that customer and likely loose any future business, not to mention reputation.

I can not recommend what MAY work MOST of the time. I do not have that luxury. Because of my profession, I have to recommend something that will not fail. That is a somewhat unique position to be coming from. As such, I often tend to be conservative with my recommendations from doing this over the years. I get thousands of e-mails a year from shooters and hunters asking me what they should use. That is the nature of the beast but you better recommend something that will work all the time and be very clear when a certain bullet will work great and when it should not be used. IF you do not do that, you loose your reputation pure and simple.

Again, long range precision hunting, Berger is at the very top of the performance ladder. Possible close range, high velocity impacts, I could list several dozen bullets that would perform better and a few that would be great all around bullet choices.

I will repeat my point, if you do not know exactly the type of hunting you will be doing, I would recommend a bullet that will get you through the mud and blood and guts at any possible range.

 

[jwp475]

Go back and do your research. John Barness ( I think that's how you spell his name) did a write up in Handloader magazine and interviewed Walt Berger. Walt stated in the article that he did not realize his bullets were good for hunting. That's when they went to New Zealand and shot stag to test their bullets. If they did know, why have they only been promoting them for the 3-4 years.

I know all about that article and don;t believe that Berger had no clue. The SMK had been used for decades for LRH. Sierra will never recommend the SMK for hunting as long as they have the Military contract for the SMK

Berger only started recommending them for hunting when it became clear that they were not going to get any of the Military contract away from Sierra

 

[ssineden]

Well guys it's been entertaining reading. Both sides have interesting takes and passion on the subject Berger Bullet VS Other Brands. I thought the argument was always Berger VS Barnes, Bergers being the new comer. My longest shot was 191 yards @ a mulie, my shortest was about 10 yards again @ a big huge mulie. Both died at the hands of a 7mm RM using Sierra Game King bullets. That being said and seeing the BOTW videos I have reasoned and switched to Bergers (with an open mind, I hope).

Bergers are like Every Other Bullet each having it's own strengths and weaknesses. I can tell you Bergers in 168 grains out of a 300 Win Mag will kill a cow Elk dead in her tracks @ 70 yards. Bergers are exceptional for true tracking, excellent penetration, resulting in dead game, so are many other bullets. Because the Bergers offer excetptional expandtion @ longer ranges, retain more velocity, buck the wind better (BC) I would choose the Berger, Nosler Accubonds being my second choice.

Over coming raking shots, or other low percentage shots, those shoots less than the ideal put you in a lower percentage range of filling a tag than the heart lung shot no matter how you try to over come the disadvantages, whether it be Magnum power, heavier bullet weights, constrution type, high velocity, soft point, hollow point, if the shot is not dead on you have a wounded animal or a miss altogether.

In our world of LRH there is the false religion of one Bullet /one Caliber/one Ballistic worship. I would submit that changing the velocity or bullet weight or constrution or caliber - changes the play on the field each time you change one of the mentioned factors. I bet on Bergers and restrict my shots to high percentage applications. I shoot Bergers because I shoot them better! Not the other way around. I shoot Bergers I shoot Better. I have the understanding of what they do and how they work.

Penetration is important but so is destruction of tissue (vitals). I don't need a through shot I need a deadly well placed shot. Pay your money (buy your bullets) take your chances. I bet on high percentage shots using Bergers. To bad they don't make them in 8MM for my 325WSM, I use Accubonds in that rifle. I'll take a MATCH grade hunting bullet over a hunting bullet any day, everyday. I'll let you know when I convert to another religion.

 

[Shooter264]

Nicely put!! There is never a perfect bullet for every situation. Hitting where you want to is Key. Which bullet would work better for bad shot placement could be debated as well. If someone were shooting a bonded bullet that is meant to hold together and get mass inches of penetration and hit an animal in the guts at say 80 yards, that would not be a pretty situation. Can we say pin hole and an animal walking off seemingly unharmed only to die a slow painful death. Or shoot one in the guts with a match VLD get 4-5" penatration and then complete destruction and the animal walks 50-75 yards and then lays down due to extreme bleeding and destruction of digestive organs.

There is no perfect answer except, shoot often, become proficient with your weapon of choice and hit where you aim. Nuff said.

 

[Lapua guy]

Lapua Guy,

Carry a 454, thats your recommendation, suppose your in Canada which is the topic at hand. Its illegal to carry a side arm in Canada except I beleive in the NWT and if your a licensed guide. If you want to get put in jail, kicked out of the country and not be allowed to cross the boarder again, take Lapua Guys advice and take a handgun into Canada. Just make sure to declare it when you cross the boarder, that will at least shorten the pain a bit before it gets started, they will just tell you to stay the hell out.

WOW!!!

Yeah, don't bring a HG to Canada, good call. Forgot about that he was going to Canada. I was thinking he was going to Alaska. As I stated in my posts talking about carrying. I was in no way telling him to do that. Quit trying to pick a fight. What, did I sleep with your wife or something? You have been trying to get me in trouble all day!

 

[Lapua guy]

I know all about that article and don;t believe that Berger had no clue. The SMK had been used for decades for LRH. Sierra will never recommend the SMK for hunting as long as they have the Military contract for the SMK

Berger only started recommending them for hunting when it became clear that they were not going to get any of the Military contract away from Sierra

I heard that too. I also find it hard to believe he had no clue about the capabilities of his bullets for hunting.