7mm mag and bergers for canadian game

[Fiftydriver]

I actually like the Berger bullets for long range hunting but in my opinion, when your talking about the expense of hunting up north and the game you may run into, the berger would not make my list for bullets.

No argument from me that they kill game and that they can easily kill the biggest critters you will run into, the problem comes when the situation turns into something that you did not expect and you may be forced to take a shot that normally is not a good choice with a soft bullet, cush as a quartering on or away shot on a bull moose at close range where you will have to drive through either heavy bone or alot of penetration to get to the vitals. This is not where the Bergers shine.

I know you hear all the time that bergers shoot clear through elk and moose......

On average, that is not the case. If impacted on the shoulder bones, that is rarely the case. In fact I have seen several instances where the bullets did not make it to the second half of the chest cavity.

Then consider the situation if something gets a bit annoyed with you, bear, moose, both can become quite a challange to put down if they have decided they do not want you around them. The berger is not a stopping bullet. Its a precision match bullet that works well on game in ideal controled situation.

Personally, I do not like to use any match bullet on heavy game unless its at least 30 cal and at least 210 grains. I know, some will start quoting sectional density numbers. Its hard to predict a bullets performance reading out of a book. On heavy game, the larger the caliber, the heavier the bullet, the more autoritative the terminal performance will be, EVERY TIME.

Ballistically, true, the 7mm may be more impressive and that can help alot in making the shot but I would much rather KNOW that the bullet will hold up its end of the bargin when it gets there.

For elk, moose and the larger bears, I would never use the Berger. 9 times out of 10 they would likely work very well but it may be that one time that you REALLY need more impressive terminal performance and in that case, I would MUCH rather be pushing the 160 gr Accubond.

I have shot many deer with my 7mm Allen Magnum with the 180 gr Bergers loaded to 3300 fps. Most of these have been in the 600 to 900 yard range. They did the job for sure but when I switched to the 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3500 fps, I was far more impressed. I got the dramatic expansion of the Berger but the penetration of the best big game bullets.

Yes it has a lower BC but in spite of that and what many believe, you do not need a +.6 BC to hit a big game animal in the vitals at long range and if you can believe it, when the bullet gets there, it will still penetrate and expand, even with a mid .5 BC range.

Its cheap insurance

I watched the Best of the West boys play with these bullets alot. In my opinion, they were simply asking for trouble and I would bet that it happened, just did not make it onto video but thats another conversation.

When your hunting heavy animals, use a bullet designed for that use. We have alot of great bullets. If you want to use a match bullet, get a larger caliber with more bullet frontal area and bullet weight to cover your rear in that slight chance something goes wrong.

I have never been in a situation where the 160 gr Accubond was the reason I did not take a shot or did not make a hit but I can think of many situation where I would give pause if I had a Berger bullet in the chamber....

 

[Lapua guy]

I actually like the Berger bullets for long range hunting but in my opinion, when your talking about the expense of hunting up north and the game you may run into, the berger would not make my list for bullets.

No argument from me that they kill game and that they can easily kill the biggest critters you will run into, the problem comes when the situation turns into something that you did not expect and you may be forced to take a shot that normally is not a good choice with a soft bullet, cush as a quartering on or away shot on a bull moose at close range where you will have to drive through either heavy bone or alot of penetration to get to the vitals. This is not where the Bergers shine.

I know you hear all the time that bergers shoot clear through elk and moose......

On average, that is not the case. If impacted on the shoulder bones, that is rarely the case. In fact I have seen several instances where the bullets did not make it to the second half of the chest cavity.

Then consider the situation if something gets a bit annoyed with you, bear, moose, both can become quite a challange to put down if they have decided they do not want you around them. The berger is not a stopping bullet. Its a precision match bullet that works well on game in ideal controled situation.

Personally, I do not like to use any match bullet on heavy game unless its at least 30 cal and at least 210 grains. I know, some will start quoting sectional density numbers. Its hard to predict a bullets performance reading out of a book. On heavy game, the larger the caliber, the heavier the bullet, the more autoritative the terminal performance will be, EVERY TIME.

Ballistically, true, the 7mm may be more impressive and that can help alot in making the shot but I would much rather KNOW that the bullet will hold up its end of the bargin when it gets there.

For elk, moose and the larger bears, I would never use the Berger. 9 times out of 10 they would likely work very well but it may be that one time that you REALLY need more impressive terminal performance and in that case, I would MUCH rather be pushing the 160 gr Accubond.

I have shot many deer with my 7mm Allen Magnum with the 180 gr Bergers loaded to 3300 fps. Most of these have been in the 600 to 900 yard range. They did the job for sure but when I switched to the 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3500 fps, I was far more impressed. I got the dramatic expansion of the Berger but the penetration of the best big game bullets.

Yes it has a lower BC but in spite of that and what many believe, you do not need a +.6 BC to hit a big game animal in the vitals at long range and if you can believe it, when the bullet gets there, it will still penetrate and expand, even with a mid .5 BC range.

Its cheap insurance

I watched the Best of the West boys play with these bullets alot. In my opinion, they were simply asking for trouble and I would bet that it happened, just did not make it onto video but thats another conversation.

When your hunting heavy animals, use a bullet designed for that use. We have alot of great bullets. If you want to use a match bullet, get a larger caliber with more bullet frontal area and bullet weight to cover your rear in that slight chance something goes wrong.

I have never been in a situation where the 160 gr Accubond was the reason I did not take a shot or did not make a hit but I can think of many situation where I would give pause if I had a Berger bullet in the chamber....

I respectfully disagree with just about everything said here. I would and have use the 180 gr Bergers for each shot you describe. No question. The Accubond is nowhere near the top of bullets I would use and I can't think of one situation where I would choose it over a Hunting VLD. Not one. Now if you are talking dangerous game, then you are talking of using a different caliber, and likely some kind of banded solid or claw round. That is a whole other story. gun)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lapua guy,

I have used them as well and would disagree with what you say. The Accubond does not have the BC of the Berger. IT also does not have the 3300 fps velocity ceiling of the Berger either. Perhaps your not using chamberings that can drive them to this velocity. We are not talking about banded solids or stopping bullets, we are talking about big game hunting bullets that in some situations may be asked to do close range, heavy work, not long range match shooting type work.

Its easy to develope an accurate drop chart for a bullet that has a slightly lower BC. ITs also easy to know when the wind is blowing to much to take a shot which is a key aspect of being a responsible long range hunter. Know your weapon and your limits as well as its limits.

The Accubond will retain MUCH more bullet weight. On hard impacts, it will penetrate much better, it shoots plenty flat enough for 1/2 mile shooting and expands easily at that range as well from most magnum chamberings.

it will not however blow up on a shoulder knuckle at close range. It will also not loose 60% of its bullet weight in the first 15" of penetration like the Bergers are DESIGNED to do.

I fully admit the Berger is a better bullet ballistically but when the chips are down on an expensive northern hunt, I would put my money on the Accubond to get the work done in a bad situation FAR before I would the Berger.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DANGEROUS GAME. AT least potentially dangerous. You ever run into a rutted up bull moose at 50 yards and see a match bullet fail on a shoulder.........

You ever see a 400 lb black bear punched from a bad angle and see it dive into the scrub brush that is to thick to even see into only to find out that bullet did not penetrate enough to get the job done. Make that situation even worse with a Grizzly.........

I can think of a dozen situations where the Accubond would be a better choice and I can not think of any situations under 1/2 mile that the Accubond would not easily get the job done. This is not opinion, simply factual results from first hand experience or first hand witnessing these things happening.

Again, a 180 gr berger will act differently if your driving them at 2800 fps compared to 3000 fps. Up that to 3200 fps and the Berger turns into a varmint bullet at anything under 300 yards. Bump that up to 3300 fps and it will turn to vapor inside 400 yards. This is not opinion, its fact from testing these bullets for expansion at these velocities and ranges.

I have also tested the 160 gr Accubond at the same ranges in same expansion media but at 3500 fps launch velocities and every time they fully passed the test.

When we were developing bullets for my 7mm Allen Magnum. We started with the Berger 180 gr VLD but it failed badly right from the start as it could not handle velocities much over 3250 fps. The old Wildcat bullet company made my custom bullets and we went with a 200 gr ULD RBBT based on the same J-4 jacket design. No heavier then the 180 gr Berger but we designed it with much more bullet weight and also tightly closed the meplat so the bullet looked very similiar to a FMJ. THis was needed to ****** expansion of this bullet so that we could get acceptable penetration on big game animals.

With an open tip, it opened up just as dramatically as the Berger 180 gr VLD which was unacceptable. We closed the Meplat and the bullet would start to expand after 5-6" of penetration instead of nearly instantly for the Berger bullet.

Retained velocity also increased to around 50% which is not great but 50% of a 200 gr bullet is much better then 40% retained velocity of a 180 gr bullet.....

I have also tested the 175 gr SMK and it will allow +3500 fps velocity with extreme accuracy. This bullet has a MUCH heavier jacket then the Berger and will outpenetrate the berger, and retain more weight then the Berger.

With the added velocity potential, it also matches the 180 Ballistically as the actual BC of the 175 gr SMK is much closer to .68 then the reported .61. The only bad thing is that the SMK bullet will tend to have a bit of an odd expansion track. By that I mean it starts to expand by the nose caving in on itself. Then once the nose jacket material is compressed back to the lead core, it will then deform the nose of the bullet but not in a traditional mushroom pattern. For this, I like the SMK for heavier game then lighter game such as deer as it perform better when it needs to penetrate a bit more.

The Accubond, does not matter. Expands easily at long range, holds together at close range , retains at least 60% of its weight at pretty much any impact velocity, generally shoots to match grade standards. No it does not have the ballistic numbers that the Berger does but in every other way you can compare a big game bullet, its superior when targeting heavy game at unknown possible ranges. By that I mean if there is a chance that a target animal may show up at ranges under 200 yards and a quick shot may need to be taken when you can not "SIT" for the ideal shot angle, there is no question, the Accubond is a superior design.

If your sitting at a fixed ambush location and targeting animals at 500 yards or beyond and will have the time to allow a target animal to present a clean chest shot, I give you the Berger is a better choice, but that is a very specialized type of hunting that most new member of LRH.com simply are not doing.

If I were to argue this post as I truely feel, the 7mm caliber should be passed up on for heavy game. Especially for long range hunting. My opinion is that long range hunting is at least 800 yards. If your hunting elk at ranges of 1000 yards I recommend only 338 magnum chamberings simply because they will get your rear out of trouble more often then a lighter caliber.

No doubt the smaller calibers will kill big game at these ranges but you do not take a weapon that is only marginal for the hunting style you are planning on doing on that outting.

This however was not the question posed. With the relatively small bore diameter of the 7mm, you are asking the bullet to do alot more work, in some situations, such as close range, bad angles and big critters your asking the bullet to do things that match bullets simply are not up to. Nothing against match bullets, for their perferred use they are amazing, for certain situations, they are very poor choices, that is my point and its a fact, not opinion. IF you can not agree with that, your simply taking this personally and not looking at it realistically.

 

[Lapua guy]

On your logic, I still wouldn't choose Accubond. I would choose Partitions. The 175s in fact would be a much better choice then them if you are stuck with a 7mm cartridge. And if I new I were shooting less than half a mile, I would probably choose a 358 Norma or even a 338 Win Mag.

As far as a charging moose, that is why I carry a Ruger 454 Casull SRH Alaskan in the back country. If I wish to shoot long range and that animal though, I still have my bergers.

 

[Shooter264]

Here's a 7mm and Berger in the good ole Canadian Wilderness. Looks like it works good to me!! 7mm Remington Mag with a 180 Grain Berger VLD at 350 yards
YouTube - Griz Kill

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lapua guy,

If your shooting a chambering that will have an impact velocity of under 2800 fps, I may agree with you but with the modern magnums, the partition WILL fail 50% of the time when impact velocity is over 2800-2900 fps. When impact velocity is 2900 to 3000 fps partition failure is easily 75%. Over 3000 fps impact velocity, nearly 100%.

When I say the partition fails, I am saying that the partition barrier is ruptured and once this happens penetration stops instantly because the rear core of the bullet is generally pushed out of the jacket and penetration stops.

In penetration tests, the Accubond will match the partition in penetration and retained weight up to 2800 fps. Above this, the accubond performs MUCH better and much more consistantly and dramatically better at the even higher impact velocities.

I have tested this with the Accubond vs. Partition in 6.5mm, 270, 7mm, 30, 338 and 375 calibers. In EVERY test, once impact velocity went above 2800 fps, the Accubond was a far superior penetrator and retained more bullet weight.

Add to that, better BC and generally much better accuracy and the partition is an outdated bullet for the modern high performance magnum chambering. I have said it a thousand times that the Accubond will replace the Partition in big magnums and is the best bullet Nolser makes.

Again, one would think your opinion is correct but it is not. I thought the same until I put the bullets to actual penetration tests and proved it.

 

[Fiftydriver]

CPGfan,

perfectly broad side, 350 yards, moderate velocity high shoulder hit, OF COURSE THE BERGER PERFORMED WELL. When you say ideal shooting conditons and shot situation, you could not discribe your video any better then that. Any video of something that is not ideal and the results?

In your video, there was time to wait for ideal shot presentation, again, moderate range, moderate impact velocity, mild penetration path(high shoulder are not hard to punch) and as expected ideal results.

I am talking about when ideal is not what happens.

 

[pyroducksx3]

I think some people are missing the point of what is being said here. I believe 50 driver is stating that there are better choices than the berger, not that they wont work! It seems he prefers the a blalnce of bullet performance and ballistic ability. I dont think he ever said the accubond is the only choice, he just found it had a good balance of bc (.531 in a 160 which has a higher BC and the ability to get more velocity) comapared to a partition (bc of .519 which is lower and not able to achieve the same velocities as the AB) The partition has a great record and is in all accounts a great bullet. But for the best all around capabilities of a bullet and possible situations one could be faced with, close and shots way out there, I think the AB edges out the partition. But the whole point is the berger is a great bullet for a specific use and that there are better bullet choices if you need a more universal bullet. I would love to shoot bergers but I dont want to carry two types of rounds, one for inside 300 and then the bergers. I believe the hornady a-max have the same problem as the bergers, too bad because I love the BC of that 7mm 162 Amax

Oh... well 50 was posting while I was typing he can prove is point better than I ever could anyway

 

[Lapua guy]

Still say use the bergers, and carry the Casull of the Oh Crap moments.

Interesting about the Partitions. I will say I don't ever push them past 2900 with Re-22 loads.

 

[Shooter264]

I say each to his/her own. I'm not trying to get in the middle of the who shoots the best bullet arguement, just thought I would share a cool video!! However, the arguement that Berger/JLK VLD's don't perform up close and personal is completely false. They perform just as good at high velocity short ranges as they do waaaaaayyyy out there. I have seen a 300" elk shot in the shoulder at 80 yards with a 105 Berger VLD out of a 6mmx284 with a MV of 3390 drop instantly and not move after. I have yet to see a circumstance where a VLD bullet does not perform as well as any Accubond, Partition, Fail Safe, or Barnes bullets. I am not saying that this is the best option for everyone but.... You won't find me shooting anything else! I have a moose/goat hunt planned for BC this fall and perhaps I will have a less then ideal condition to test the VLD bullet in. I will have the camera rolling, but my money says the VLD will perform just fine.

 

[jwp475]

I actually like the Berger bullets for long range hunting but in my opinion, when your talking about the expense of hunting up north and the game you may run into, the berger would not make my list for bullets.

No argument from me that they kill game and that they can easily kill the biggest critters you will run into, the problem comes when the situation turns into something that you did not expect and you may be forced to take a shot that normally is not a good choice with a soft bullet, cush as a quartering on or away shot on a bull moose at close range where you will have to drive through either heavy bone or alot of penetration to get to the vitals. This is not where the Bergers shine.

I know you hear all the time that bergers shoot clear through elk and moose......

On average, that is not the case. If impacted on the shoulder bones, that is rarely the case. In fact I have seen several instances where the bullets did not make it to the second half of the chest cavity.

Then consider the situation if something gets a bit annoyed with you, bear, moose, both can become quite a challange to put down if they have decided they do not want you around them. The berger is not a stopping bullet. Its a precision match bullet that works well on game in ideal controled situation.

Personally, I do not like to use any match bullet on heavy game unless its at least 30 cal and at least 210 grains. I know, some will start quoting sectional density numbers. Its hard to predict a bullets performance reading out of a book. On heavy game, the larger the caliber, the heavier the bullet, the more autoritative the terminal performance will be, EVERY TIME.

Ballistically, true, the 7mm may be more impressive and that can help alot in making the shot but I would much rather KNOW that the bullet will hold up its end of the bargin when it gets there.

For elk, moose and the larger bears, I would never use the Berger. 9 times out of 10 they would likely work very well but it may be that one time that you REALLY need more impressive terminal performance and in that case, I would MUCH rather be pushing the 160 gr Accubond.

I have shot many deer with my 7mm Allen Magnum with the 180 gr Bergers loaded to 3300 fps. Most of these have been in the 600 to 900 yard range. They did the job for sure but when I switched to the 160 gr Accubond loaded to 3500 fps, I was far more impressed. I got the dramatic expansion of the Berger but the penetration of the best big game bullets.

Yes it has a lower BC but in spite of that and what many believe, you do not need a +.6 BC to hit a big game animal in the vitals at long range and if you can believe it, when the bullet gets there, it will still penetrate and expand, even with a mid .5 BC range.

Its cheap insurance

I watched the Best of the West boys play with these bullets alot. In my opinion, they were simply asking for trouble and I would bet that it happened, just did not make it onto video but thats another conversation.

When your hunting heavy animals, use a bullet designed for that use. We have alot of great bullets. If you want to use a match bullet, get a larger caliber with more bullet frontal area and bullet weight to cover your rear in that slight chance something goes wrong.

I have never been in a situation where the 160 gr Accubond was the reason I did not take a shot or did not make a hit but I can think of many situation where I would give pause if I had a Berger bullet in the chamber....

I respectfully disagree with just about everything said here. I would and have use the 180 gr Bergers for each shot you describe. No question. The Accubond is nowhere near the top of bullets I would use and I can't think of one situation where I would choose it over a Hunting VLD. Not one. Now if you are talking dangerous game, then you are talking of using a different caliber, and likely some kind of banded solid or claw round. That is a whole other story. gun)

IMHO and experience Kirby is 100% correct

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lapua Guy,

Carry a 454, thats your recommendation, suppose your in Canada which is the topic at hand. Its illegal to carry a side arm in Canada except I beleive in the NWT and if your a licensed guide. If you want to get put in jail, kicked out of the country and not be allowed to cross the boarder again, take Lapua Guys advice and take a handgun into Canada. Just make sure to declare it when you cross the boarder, that will at least shorten the pain a bit before it gets started, they will just tell you to stay the hell out.

WOW!!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

CPGfan,

This is the exact problem I have talked about on other posts. You come on here saying that the 105 gr 6mm Berger dropped a bull elk in its tracks at 80 yards from a 6-284 when fired at 3390 fps.

OK, I have yet to see any 6-284 drive a 105 gr Berger to 3400 fps and get anything remotely close to accuracy. The 105 gr Berger and A-Max have a 3250-3300 fps velocity ceiling. Again, this is not opinion, this is fact from building dozens of these rifles.

Someone that wants to get into long range hunting comes on here, reads your post of someone that got flat out LUCKY with this **** ant bullet that dropped a bull elk and figures this is the way to do things. Only problem, when he tries it, he gets the results that would happen most of the time. A gaping surface wound and the elk limps off never to be seen again. And why would that happen, because someone makes a comment on LRH that a 105 gr Berger will drop a bull elk at 80 yards when fired out of a 6-284 at 3400 fps.

We have to be more responsible with the comments we make to those that are coming here to learn the responsible way to do things, not offer the "One time I saw" type of comments.

You have been warned about the performance of the VLD in less then ideal conditions. Yet you still insist that if you get the chance to push this design you will do so in a heart beat instead of using a bullet that has been proven in all situations.

That my friend could be discribed as a lack something upstairs. When I tell my little girl not to touch the stove because its hot and she does it anyway, I can at least see why she did it as she has no experience and does not fully understand why its better to depend on others FACTUAL experience from time to time. In your case, there is no excuse other then ego. If you have been warned about actual results from people that have ACTUALLY Tested these things in the situations they are reporting on and you STILL WANT to see what happens, not only are you hard headed, but your being disrepectful to the animals your planning on hunting.

If you want to use a VLD bullet, go ahead. I use them all the time and they work great, just know when not to use them, that is most important. Know when to NOT pull the trigger. Not pull the trigger and see what happens. That is what gives the anti-hunters and anti-longrange hunters all their ammo. Generally it comes from lack of common sense, to much ego and to little experience. But as you said, to each their own, if you can not learn from others experience so be it.

If you take a difficult shot and things go bad, I am sure we will not hear about it, or at least not the whole story, that is generally what happens if we ever hear about it.

When is your hunt booked for so we can put a mark on the calander when to expect your video and report?

 

[Shooter264]

CPGfan,

This is the exact problem I have talked about on other posts. You come on here saying that the 105 gr 6mm Berger dropped a bull elk in its tracks at 80 yards from a 6-284 when fired at 3390 fps.

OK, I have yet to see any 6-284 drive a 105 gr Berger to 3400 fps and get anything remotely close to accuracy. The 105 gr Berger and A-Max have a 3250-3300 fps velocity ceiling. Again, this is not opinion, this is fact from building dozens of these rifles.

Someone that wants to get into long range hunting comes on here, reads your post of someone that got flat out LUCKY with this **** ant bullet that dropped a bull elk and figures this is the way to do things. Only problem, when he tries it, he gets the results that would happen most of the time. A gaping surface wound and the elk limps off never to be seen again. And why would that happen, because someone makes a comment on LRH that a 105 gr Berger will drop a bull elk at 80 yards when fired out of a 6-284 at 3400 fps.

We have to be more responsible with the comments we make to those that are coming here to learn the responsible way to do things, not offer the "One time I saw" type of comments.

You have been warned about the performance of the VLD in less then ideal conditions. Yet you still insist that if you get the chance to push this design you will do so in a heart beat instead of using a bullet that has been proven in all situations.

That my friend could be discribed as a lack something upstairs. When I tell my little girl not to touch the stove because its hot and she does it anyway, I can at least see why she did it as she has no experience and does not fully understand why its better to depend on others FACTUAL experience from time to time. In your case, there is no excuse other then ego. If you have been warned about actual results from people that have ACTUALLY Tested these things in the situations they are reporting on and you STILL WANT to see what happens, not only are you hard headed, but your being disrepectful to the animals your planning on hunting.

If you want to use a VLD bullet, go ahead. I use them all the time and they work great, just know when not to use them, that is most important. Know when to NOT pull the trigger. Not pull the trigger and see what happens. That is what gives the anti-hunters and anti-longrange hunters all their ammo. Generally it comes from lack of common sense, to much ego and to little experience. But as you said, to each their own, if you can not learn from others experience so be it.

If you take a difficult shot and things go bad, I am sure we will not hear about it, or at least not the whole story, that is generally what happens if we ever hear about it.

When is your hunt booked for so we can put a mark on the calander when to expect your video and report?

Lord Kirby
RESPONSIBLE??? Give me a break. I think I have finally figured you out. Nothing is good enough for you unless it's a MAGNUM. You say I may be missing something upstairs because of my experience with a 6mmx284 on elk? Well, I say you are lacking something downstairs because you have to have a Magnum and a bonded bullet. You know nothing about me or my experience. You don't know how many elk I have seen ethically killed with a 6mmx284 in the last 10 years. Trust me buddy, it's been a lot!! Where are all your facts that you keep running your mouth about? They are nothing but your opinion and since you build guns you feel people should interpret them as facts. Hogwash!! Don't keep telling everyone about it show us. Show us the tests you have performed and the results from them. I have never taken an unethical shot in the field, nor have I ever lost an animal due to wounding it with a VLD bullet. YOU are the one that will lead people to wounding aninmals with your MAGNUM banter. People listen to what you have to say and go out and buy the biggest, baddest, whiz giz they can find and take it hunting. They can't shoot the rifle without squinting their eyes and jerking the trigger, but by god, That's what Lord Kirby says it takes to be a responsible hunter. I can see that by reading your posts that you don't believe anyone knows anything about anything unless it is posted by you. Keep running your mouth as there several people out there that are figuring out where NOT to have a gun built. I am sure by all the posts you have hear the customers are just pouring in for a big bad MAGNUM and a $.02 cent education.

My hunt is scheduled for September. Please check back with me then. Between now and then I will be trying to figure out what to use.... a 7mm with a JLK 180 or perhaps a 6.5-06AI and a 140 JLK. Please don't offer your opinion on what you think I should use as I already know that by thinking of using either of them, I am just Bat S*!t crazy.