7mm mag and bergers for canadian game

[Fiftydriver]

Has anyone actually proven that there is even a difference between the "Match" and "Hunting" bullets from Berger? When they first came out with the "Hunting" 180 gr 7mm I got some, sectioned them on the mill, measured jacket thickness, did some lead core hardness testing, measured OD dimensions and I could not tell ANY difference at all between the two of them except for possibly a slight difference in meplate diameter.

That said, measuring lot to lot, I noticed the same difference on the match bullets alone so this did not make much difference.

They may have changed since then but from what I could see, those first "Hunting" bullets were only different because they were in a different colored box that said "Hunting" instead of "Match".

They also were listed with a lower BC but when shot, they appeared to have identical BC as the "Match" bullets were listed at....... From that point on I never put much stock in the fact that there was any difference at all between the two.

Maybe things have changed since then.

 

[msalm]

I've only shot a few critters past 600, two elk and that 1180yd mule deer that Jim mentioned, first was 600 yards with a 168gr TSX in 300 WSM and the last two with the 200gr AB out of a 300 Ultra. Very good performance in all three instances. The one instance I saw the Berger used was Coyboy's mule deer at 826 and honestly that soured me on them somewhat. If a bullet can blow a chest all to hell at 826, what would it do closer??? I'm pretty happy with the accubonds and will likely stick with those. In fact I'm outfitting a lightweight 7mm Dakota and the first bullets I loaded were the 160gr accubonds. If they will shoot well at something over 3000fps I'll likely stick with them.

 

[Coyboy]

Has anyone actually proven that there is even a difference between the "Match" and "Hunting" bullets from Berger? When they first came out with the "Hunting" 180 gr 7mm I got some, sectioned them on the mill, measured jacket thickness, did some lead core hardness testing, measured OD dimensions and I could not tell ANY difference at all between the two of them except for possibly a slight difference in meplate diameter.

That said, measuring lot to lot, I noticed the same difference on the match bullets alone so this did not make much difference.

They may have changed since then but from what I could see, those first "Hunting" bullets were only different because they were in a different colored box that said "Hunting" instead of "Match".

They also were listed with a lower BC but when shot, they appeared to have identical BC as the "Match" bullets were listed at....... From that point on I never put much stock in the fact that there was any difference at all between the two.

Maybe things have changed since then.

Kirby, the original match bullets turned into the hunting bullets. Then the NEW match bullets were suposed to have thicker jackets.

So if you sectioned a box of the older match bullets and the orange box hunting bullets they should have been the same.

I have already recieved 6mm bullets in 7mm labeled boxes so I would guess some mislabeling could have taken place at one time.

 

[Shooter264]

COYBOY is 100% correct, all VLD berger's were created equal until they came out with their thick version. The reason they started making a "thick" version was because some of the cut rifled boys were complaining about the jackets not being tuff enough. COYBOY I emailed you about 5 months ago to ask your opinion of the Brux barrel and wanted to say thank you, you were spot on. I had a 6.5x47L stuffed together with one and I am a huge believer now. Not much break in and shoots lights out. Not sure, but maybe those would work in the Allen Mags, Fiftydriver, have you tried them at all?

 

[6.5 mag]

so for all the guys that have had a issue with the bergers, did the come in a red box or yellow.all mine have been from the yellow box never shot any from a red box, & have never had a issue. so i wonder if its because iam using the heavier jacketed ones.

 

[noneck180]

Well I always thought a heavier jacket would be better...for a somewhat controlled expansion. I have only shot deer with the yellow box's not orange...now that I know the hunting bullets have a thinner jacket, I will just stick with what I have.

 

[7mmRHB]

Kirby, although I didn't measure the amount of difference, I did grind into both versions and there was an obvious difference in thickness to the naked eye so I left it at that.

I still like the Berger for long range shots but I will find an Accubond load to stuff in my mag box that will shoot minute of elk at short range for the future!!!


The Bull that was shot 5 times without expansion was a Gunwerks rifle with Gunwerks custom loads that were" supposed" to be the 168 Berger, Hunting VLDs but seemed to be the Target version instead. I don't know if the owner cut in to any of them to prove it one way or another but he was mad as #ell telling me his story in my shop. ---- RHB

 

[Fiftydriver]

So the original "Hunting" bullets and current "Hunting" bullets are the same as the original "Match" bullets but the current "Match" bullets have heavier jackets.........

WHAT THE HELL. If berger wanted to make a hunting bullet, why would they not build a tapered jacket to use for a hunting bullet that expended easily at any velocity down to say 1500 fps but had a heavy body jacket thickness that would support heavy impact resistance???

I was reading on the berger site where they say their bullets are designed to expand within 2-3" of impact and they are also designed to loose 40 to 85% of their original bullet weight. This Scrapnel is what causes severe damage.

As advertised, this is exactly what Berger bullets do. The problem comes when you need more penetration then the Bergers are designed for which is pretty much any game larger then deer at conventional ranges.

My point still stands, if you do not know how you will be hunting or what type of situation you will be in when you have to pull the trigger, the Accubond is a far superior, ALL AROUND bullet choice then any berger, match, hunting or hybrid design, does not matter, ESPECIALLY when talking about heavier game which is what this topic is about anyway, not lighter game.

 

[msalm]

+1!!!

 

[270winshort]

Ok, not trying to flame, just trying to understand. So you put four rounds of 180 gr Bergers into a Bull Elk and ever one failed to penetrate with effect. Not one past through both lungs.

Do I have this right?

It sounds like that if it didn't run after the first shot, you hit him pretty good and the very least broke him enough to not run off. I have seen Bulls wobble around for a spell before dying, but usually if you have a hit that doesn't penetrate, they run off, especially when you are shooting close range like that. But to say 4 shots and it didn't even penetrate through a set of lungs, well I have never seen that.

Again, I haven't seen it all. That must have been crazy to see in person.

It sounds as though you doubt this story from 7mm RHB, I am here to tell you that I know for a fact that this story is true from start to finish, the reason that I know this because I was there and saw the whole thing,and this is not the first time that I have seen a close range berger failure, I have also seen a complete pass through at about the same range with the suposed hunting bullet, if I were going to shot a moose or a bear at close range say under 300 yards I would dang sure have a load with a good old accubond, in the case of this elk I have know doubt that a 140 grain 270 bullet would have knocked this elk on his -ss, dont get me wrong I like bergers and shot them all the time and am wright know working on a 7mm wsm for my son and am planning on using berger but I will also have a hand full of accubonds at the ready for any close range shots.

Opinons are like butts everybodys got one

 

[Shooter264]

I wished far more people would have shot the Accubonds so the price of the Berger would have stayed low, and the quality would have remained high!!! Hehehe

 

[trapperluke]

Two years ago I went on a buffalo hunt with my brother and a friend. My brother was shooting a 7mm Rem mag with 168gr bergers at 2950fps and our friend was shooting a 7mm short mag shooting 160gr accubonds. They shot two buffalo side by side at about 150 yds. The one my brother shot only took one shot and died within 20 ft of where he shot it. Our friend shot his 5 times all shot within a 6 inch circle behind the shoulder 3 of those shots failed to penatrate the rib cage, and the buffalo went about a 100 yds. That wasn't the only time I've seen accubonds fail, my dad shot a muley at about 175 yds the enterance hole was about 4 inches and we had to put a 2nd shot in him when we got to him.

 

[Shooter264]

Two years ago I went on a buffalo hunt with my brother and a friend. My brother was shooting a 7mm Rem mag with 168gr bergers at 2950fps and our friend was shooting a 7mm short mag shooting 160gr accubonds. They shot two buffalo side by side at about 150 yds. The one my brother shot only took one shot and died within 20 ft of where he shot it. Our friend shot his 5 times all shot within a 6 inch circle behind the shoulder 3 of those shots failed to penatrate the rib cage, and the buffalo went about a 100 yds. That wasn't the only time I've seen accubonds fail, my dad shot a muley at about 175 yds the enterance hole was about 4 inches and we had to put a 2nd shot in him when we got to him.

I shot a Cow Buffalo in Jackson Hole Wyoming in 2008 with a 7mm and 168 Bergers on the elk refuge. They have at least two game wardens watching people at all times. I shot my cow at 276 yards with a MV of 3130 and she took about two steps then piled up. I had both game wardens rush over after I shot her to find out what I shot her with because she went in a heap. I just grinned and showed told them just a danged old target bullet. The boys with the Jackson Hole Game and Fish Department were Berger believers after that!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Trapperluke,

I shot a big whitetail buck in 2000 with my 300 RUM loaded with a 180 gr Ballistic Silvertip loaded to 3410 fps. First shot was broadside at 420 yards. Just behind the shoulder. Put the buck on his nose. Got up to walk over to the downed buck, the **** thing got back up and started walking away. Got down and put another one through his chest at 360 yards or so. Again, on his nose and again he got back up. Third shot he was quatering away, this time I broke the offside shoulder on exit and he went down for good.

Got up to the buck and every one of the 180 gr Ballistic Silvertips had perfromed great. 1" entrance wound, 2" exit wounds, full penetration and exit on each shot, even the one that broke the offside shoulder. Internals were a mess. Could not have been happier with the actual bullet performance, still the buck did not go down. Some animals just have more will to live then others, that is a fact.

Another instance, My dad shot a big whitetail with his 22-250 at 100 yards. Pole axed him. High fives all around, buck gets up and runs out into a field. He was to far for Dad to shoot with his 22-250 so I punched him with my 7mm Rem Mag with a 140 gr Ballistic Silvertip loaded to 3380 fps. Broke his onside shoulder and the buck fell. We figured we had him down but he still got back to his feet. He limped away from us as I put another one through his chest at a severe quartering angle and he just hunged up and kept on walking and made it to the timber. We drove to the ranch owners house and he came out to try to recover the buck.

After letting him sit for a bit we jumped him out of the brush patch he was in. The ranch owner got a shot into him from his 243 Win loaded with 100 gr partitions at around 100 yards and I got another shot into him with my 7mm at 300 yards before he hit the timber. We left him that night and came back the next morning and picked up his trail. We found him 200 yards into the timber.

Dads first shot had landed a bit high behind the shoulder. The 55 gr Hornady SP fully penetrated and took out the top of both lungs. It has also shocked the spine which was the reason the buck dropped but got back to his feet. My first shot with the 7mm broke the onside shoulder and was found under the hide on the offside of the chest cavity penetrating right through the vitals.

Third shot entered just ahead of the left ham, penetrated up through the liver, diaphram and into the vitals and was found in the right side of the rib meat, traveling completely through the chest cavity.

The 243 shot was back taking out the liver but had fully penetrated. My last shot was also back and high taking out the top of the liver and top of the lungs but fully penetrated and exited. That shot also took out the main arteries that run under the spine but he still made it 200 yards into the timber before passing.

Again, some animals just are hard to kill and do not want to die.

I have also taken a whitetail doe at 120 yards with a 22 LR revolver. Shot her through the lungs. It was a stupid thing to do and I was a stupid young kid at the time. I did not even think I hit her, she turned and ran and just before I turned away from them, she started to stagger and then fell over dead.

I shot a huge bull elk at 607 yards and never hit any bone at all, slipped between ribs entering and exiting. The bull ran 20 yards and fell over dead. That is not common. I have also seen bull elk take a pound of lead from well placed shots and just keep on a running.

Simply put, we can all come up with stories of game that simply did not die when it should have and it rarely is a result of what bullet was used even though that is what we often blame it on.

Simply put, when the chips are down, I would put my money on an accubond every time for a close range, heavy animal hunt. No questions. I have killed around two dozen big game animals with the berger bullets, probably about the same with the Accubond and about twice that many with the Ballistic Tips and Ballistic Silvertips before the Accubonds came out and I still stand by my belief that an Accubond is a far superior ALL AROUND big game bullet and I would bet that bullet failure stories with the Berger will pop up around 10 to 1 compared to the Accubonds, at least current accubonds and not the very early ones.