6mm Creedmoor first elk hunt

[clark33]

You gonna shoot a moose with a 22LR because "KE thresholds" aren't relevant anymore? Being a smarty pants on purpose. Don't get your panties in a bunch on jokes.

KE thresholds are relevant and always will be. The only place where KE thresholds are not "relevant" is the battle field where the goal is to wound to remove 1+2. Truthfully KE thresholds are still relevant there as the projectile may need to bust armor to make the 1 need the 2.

The goal with hunting should always be DRT+humane. Sub 1000#lb might be fine for "fragile" game but none of North American deer family are not "fragile".

No one's upset, but it seems you're getting childish when your beliefs are challenged.

And now we're talking about military applications? Thank the lord no elk or deer I've come across was wearing Kevlar or my non magnum just would not have done the job.

 

[WeiserBucks]

No one's upset, but it seems you're getting childish when your beliefs are challenged.

And now we're talking about military applications? Thank the lord no elk or deer I've come across was wearing Kevlar or my non magnum just would not have done the job.

They are wearing Kevlar, that's why anything less than a Cheytac just bounces off.

 

[clark33]

They are wearing Kevlar, that's why anything less than a Cheytac just bounces off.

facts

 

[fseaman]

A 55 grain .22-250 = 1700 fpe
A 340 grain +p+ .44 mag = 1550 fpe

One of them will go through an elk end long… the other won't exit a coyote.

Kinetic Energy doesn't mean squat if you suffer from Projectile Dysfunction.

Not disagreeing...

The thread is about Elk but

The "rule of thumb" is terminal PFE not muzzle PFE. Varmints are different "fragile game". In the case of a coyote if shot placement is correct, it is dead with both your examples pretty much at any yardage you can hit it with. An elk, not so much. Not enough terminal PFE at "normal" distances. A Hammer Hunter from a 22-250 at 10 yards, sure, dead elk. at 100 yards and beyond, not so much.

Correct. The terminal ballistics "comfort zone" is not totally based on PFE but it is "important".

In Missouri a 223 is not acceptable method of take. Not enough PFE. The state saw too many unrecovered by hunter but fatality or injury so that rule was made. It used to be that a 22-250 was acceptable only if handloads, now factory load are fine.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Not disagreeing...

The thread is about Elk but

The "rule of thumb" is terminal PFE not muzzle PFE. Varmints are different "fragile game". In the case of a coyote if shot placement is correct, it is dead with both your examples pretty much at any yardage you can hit it with. An elk, not so much. Not enough terminal PFE at "normal" distances. A Hammer Hunter from a 22-250 at 10 yards, sure, dead elk. at 100 yards and beyond, not so much.

Correct. The terminal ballistics "comfort zone" is not totally based on PFE but it is "important".

In Missouri a 223 is not acceptable method of take. Not enough PFE. The state saw too many unrecovered by hunter but fatality or injury so that rule was made. It used to be that a 22-250 was acceptable only if handloads, now factory load are fine.

Why doesn't a single bullet manufacturer rate their bullets on minimum energy to kill? Why do they all rate based on velocity?

 

[fseaman]

Assuming no CNS hits,
What is the mechanism of death with a 1500ft-lb of energy bullet that expends all of it inside the animal?
And what is the mechanism of death of a 300ft-lb arrow that goes through the animal? Or a 50ft-lb spear?

This is all "rhetorical" form. Nothing personal.

Case 1, immobilized by traumatic shock, death by blood loss. Traumatic shock is the "hunch up" that we know when not DRT.
Case 2, death by blood loss.
Case 3, death by blood loss.

Case 1, distance to target 100 to 400 yards. Finding blood trail = difficult.
Case 2,3 distance to target 15 to 25 yards. Finding blood trail = normal.
don't be a trolls and start nit picking the yardages or bad shots.

So, if death is by blood loss and you have to find a blood trail 400 more more yards away because there was no immobilizing KE. Is your recovery easy?

If I am using a firearm I want DRT. Big is better more KE is better. Yes, a failed expansion can lead to unacceptable terminal ballistics, chit happens.

 

[WeiserBucks]

This is all "rhetorical" form. Nothing personal.

Case 1, immobilized by traumatic shock, death by blood loss. Traumatic shock is the "hunch up" that we know when not DRT.
Case 2, death by blood loss.
Case 3, death by blood loss.

Case 1, distance to target 100 to 400 yards. Finding blood trail = difficult.
Case 2,3 distance to target 15 to 25 yards. Finding blood trail = normal.
don't be a trolls and start nit picking the yardages or bad shots.

So, if death is by blood loss and you have to find a blood trail 400 more more yards away because there was no immobilizing KE. Is your recovery easy?

If I am using a firearm I want DRT. Bid is better more KE is better. Yes, a failed expansion can lead to unacceptable terminal ballistics, chit happens.

I think you skipped post #383 while you were typing.

 

[fseaman]

Why doesn't a single bullet manufacturer rate their bullets on minimum energy to kill? Why do they all rate based on velocity?

Because rating on velocity is new. I'm 66yo, rating by velocity is less than 5yo. Reference the 270 LRX. Yes, it may still have 1500 PFE but be traveling below the MFG minimum impact velocity for optimal terminal ballistics. In simpler words: it might work, it might not.

If you look at the KE that matches the MFG minimum fps it probably be well above 1000 PFE.

This is physics stuff...

 

[fseaman]

How are you measuring how much energy was transferred?

You can't.

You can only "guesstimate" based on predicted FPS and KE at impact. If the bullet does not exit, all "estimated" KE was transferred to the target. If the bullet exists because of "less than optimal" terminal performance? Well, if it makes a good wound channel, severs blood vessels, causes at least some impact trauma and recovery is successful, it was enough.

 

[clark33]

Because rating on velocity is new. I'm 66yo, rating by velocity is less than 5yo. Reference the 270 LRX. Yes, it may still have 1500 PFE but be traveling below the MFG minimum impact velocity for optimal terminal ballistics. In simpler words: it might work, it might not.

If you look at the KE that matches the MFG minimum fps it probably be well above 1000 PFE.

This is physics stuff...

this explains a lot, can't teach an old dog new tricks

 

[fseaman]

They are wearing Kevlar, that's why anything less than a Cheytac just bounces off.

On my last elk hunt I used a 338 double tap to the body and one to the head.

 

[stazmania]

Why doesn't a single bullet manufacturer rate their bullets on minimum energy to kill? Why do they all rate based on velocity?

because velocity of a given projectile "does not matter cartridge" is going to deliver the same transfer of energy into the target. if you trust the bullet manufacturer and agree with and want the result the manufacture designed the bullet for go for it, if it fits your need. The velocity that the manufacturer designed the bullet to preform at is the velocity they think will give the best energy transfer to the target. In my opinion some hunting bullets are way over constructed and punch through wasting energy. On the flip side a bullet that blows up on the surface wastes its energy. What is worse a pencil hole or a splash wound? we are looking for something in between some want an exit some want all the energy inside.

 

[WeiserBucks]

You can't.

You can only "guesstimate"

This is physics stuff...

Is it physics or is it guesstimating?

 

[fseaman]

Not to anyone that understands animals aren't killed by heating them with bullet friction.

Oh darn. I always thought the BBQ started with the heat of the bullet. I guess I been doing it wrong.