distantfoe
Well-Known Member
To throw a bit of a spin on the subject, how about a 243wssm AR-15?
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6mm Coyote Rifle
- Thread starter Timberbeast7
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Timberbeast7
Well-Known Member
I've got a custom AR (more of the man-killer type than the coyote-killer type) but I just have a thing for bolt guns.
joecool
Well-Known Member
Kirby what powder are you using to run the 107 at 3600 out of the 6-284? thats smoking fast
buffalorancher
Well-Known Member
I've got a 6-284 on a M-70 action with an ABS/Rock barrel 1:8 twist. Everything Kirby has said is pretty much spot on. I only use the 107 SMK because of the A-Max and Berger explosion issue. The unfortunate part of this is that the A-Max shot great until about 200 rounds down the barrel. Because of our almost unlimited antlerless deer tags I have killed nearly 100 deer in the last three years and most of them with the 107 SMK. It is very effective out to 700-800 yards and then it will pencil through. I've killed a dozen coyotes but they haven't been past 400 yards and all but maybe 2 or 3 had significant holes in them. If you really want to take advantage of all the great 6mm bullets available stay away from the 6-284 but if you don't mind the SMK or even the 95 Nosler BT it will work. I've often thought the 6-284 may be better suited shooting light bullets REALLY fast. My barrel did shoot the 87 gr V-Max fairly well.
Timberbeast7
Well-Known Member
Kirby, PM sent...
Timberbeast7
Well-Known Member
The minimum I would shoot would be the 87 gr v-max. I'm really looking to shoot the heavier bullets (105-107 gr.) specifically to buck the wind.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Timberbeast7,
I prefer the 6mm-284 for single shots, a bit more performance, no fireforming.
I prefer the 6-06 in repeaters because its higher level of performance, much better feeding and again, no fireforming needed.
If I want a smaller 6mm, or a light bullet loaded 6mm, I would go with a 6-250 or 6x47 lapua just for longer barrel life.
For the big 6mm, I am all about performance and with no need to fireform brass, I prefer the two mentioned for those reasons. Not saying they are better, more accurate or anything else. They likely have less barrel life, again, I want performance if I am going to bother to drive a +105 gr 6mm bullet as I will not be shooting the rifle high volume so the shorter barrel life is of no real concern to me.
I prefer the 6mm-284 for single shots, a bit more performance, no fireforming.
I prefer the 6-06 in repeaters because its higher level of performance, much better feeding and again, no fireforming needed.
If I want a smaller 6mm, or a light bullet loaded 6mm, I would go with a 6-250 or 6x47 lapua just for longer barrel life.
For the big 6mm, I am all about performance and with no need to fireform brass, I prefer the two mentioned for those reasons. Not saying they are better, more accurate or anything else. They likely have less barrel life, again, I want performance if I am going to bother to drive a +105 gr 6mm bullet as I will not be shooting the rifle high volume so the shorter barrel life is of no real concern to me.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Joecool,
I had a customer that wanted to get as much as he could out of this chambering. He wanted me to find out where the limits were. The rifle was based on a Nesika Model M single shot so it was brute strong. I was using RL-22 with the throat cut so the base of the full diameter SMK was at the base of the case neck.
I worked up until the primer pockets began to noticably loosen on the first firing. This was out of a 32" barrel. Average velocity was 3612 fps for a 10 shot string and at 500 yards, three, three shot groups averaged 1.214" ctc!!! Thats an average of three groups, not a one group wonder.
Still, when the customer picked up his rifle, I gave him a load that produced right at 3500 fps and its accuracy was just as good as the hotter load but brass life was much better, 4-5 firings easily. I just could not in good faith give a go ahead for the hotter load.
Still, my point was the SMK took this velocity and in a 3 groove 1-8 twist!!! I in no way recommend this level of velocity out of this chambering.
I had a customer that wanted to get as much as he could out of this chambering. He wanted me to find out where the limits were. The rifle was based on a Nesika Model M single shot so it was brute strong. I was using RL-22 with the throat cut so the base of the full diameter SMK was at the base of the case neck.
I worked up until the primer pockets began to noticably loosen on the first firing. This was out of a 32" barrel. Average velocity was 3612 fps for a 10 shot string and at 500 yards, three, three shot groups averaged 1.214" ctc!!! Thats an average of three groups, not a one group wonder.
Still, when the customer picked up his rifle, I gave him a load that produced right at 3500 fps and its accuracy was just as good as the hotter load but brass life was much better, 4-5 firings easily. I just could not in good faith give a go ahead for the hotter load.
Still, my point was the SMK took this velocity and in a 3 groove 1-8 twist!!! I in no way recommend this level of velocity out of this chambering.
silvertip-co
Well-Known Member
Seems like a 6mm Rem would be as good or better than all them fancy calibre$ ya cant get ammo for. Then just stuff a high bc bullet in the 6mm Rem when you reload and you're all set. Then when ya see an big mulie or elk ya dump it too.
trebark
Well-Known Member
How about the 260Rem? Will shoot the heavy bullets and give long barrel life.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Please explain how a 6mm Rem is any easier to load for then a 6mm-284 or 6mm-06?
In the case of the 6mm-284, you take a 6.5mm-284 case, run it through a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
In the case of the 6mm-06, you take a 25-06 case, run it through a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
In the case of a 6mm Rem, you take a 6mm Rem case, run it though a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
Its no more difficult to size these cases then it is a factory 6mm Rem case, one pass, no fuss, no muss.
As far as brass, how much longer do you think you will be able to get 6mm Rem brass? ITs already listed as a seasonal offering. How long do you think we will be able to get 6.5mm-284 brass..... Long time, how about 25-06..... Again long time.
You say these rounds are so exotic, not really, sure you could not get them at the sporting good store but I would say the majority of gun shops do not carry anything in 6mm Rem either and if you have to handload it to get high BC bullets, what is its real advantage over the ones I have listed?
No flame intended, just curious what you use for basis of your comments?
In the case of the 6mm-284, you take a 6.5mm-284 case, run it through a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
In the case of the 6mm-06, you take a 25-06 case, run it through a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
In the case of a 6mm Rem, you take a 6mm Rem case, run it though a FL sizing die, prime it, powder it, seat a bullet and shoot it.
Its no more difficult to size these cases then it is a factory 6mm Rem case, one pass, no fuss, no muss.
As far as brass, how much longer do you think you will be able to get 6mm Rem brass? ITs already listed as a seasonal offering. How long do you think we will be able to get 6.5mm-284 brass..... Long time, how about 25-06..... Again long time.
You say these rounds are so exotic, not really, sure you could not get them at the sporting good store but I would say the majority of gun shops do not carry anything in 6mm Rem either and if you have to handload it to get high BC bullets, what is its real advantage over the ones I have listed?
No flame intended, just curious what you use for basis of your comments?
Timberbeast7
Well-Known Member
Kirby,
I'm looking at using a 26" bbl, would more bbl length be needed to realize the advantages of the the 6-06 or 6-284 over the standard 6mm Rem? Also (and I don't mean to beat a dead horse) but how many rounds do you usually see out of the 6-06 or 6-284 before the barrel is toast (1:9 twist, 100+ gr. bullets)? I don't mind burning out a barrel, but inside of 500 rnds is a little quick....
Thanks,
tb7
I'm looking at using a 26" bbl, would more bbl length be needed to realize the advantages of the the 6-06 or 6-284 over the standard 6mm Rem? Also (and I don't mean to beat a dead horse) but how many rounds do you usually see out of the 6-06 or 6-284 before the barrel is toast (1:9 twist, 100+ gr. bullets)? I don't mind burning out a barrel, but inside of 500 rnds is a little quick....
Thanks,
tb7
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Barrel life is so dependant on how the barrel is treated its hard to predict but I would on average say you could get 800 round easily for big game or large varmint accuracy in a 6mm-06. The key is do not let the barrel overheat.
Some say a three shot groups is useless, those will use up more barrel life developing loads then anything else. Three shots in this class of rifle is plenty for groups. Plus, at the third shot, the barrel is ready for a break as far as bore temps. If you put that fourth and fifth shot through the bore you go from hot on the third shot to doing serious damage on the 4th and 5th shots, pointless and wasteful.
Also, if your one of those that have a case of "tinkeritis", that meaning those that believe there is that magical mystical load around the corner, DO NOT GO WITH ANY OF THESE. Most of my wildcats are not barrel friendly and I strongly recommend to my customers to find a "good" load that will do what you want and stop load development and get off paper at 100 yards. More barrels have been wasted on paper at 100 yards then from any other use looking for that "Best" load.
In all honesty, is you put the bullet on point of aim, there is no real difference between a 3/4 moa and a 1/2 moa rifle for a big game rifle or large varmint rifle. Its far more critical to get your drop chart accurate and your rifle set up to match your drop chart then it is to take 1/4 moa off the groups of your rifles.
If your rifle puts your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim at 1000 yards, you will kill any critter from the size of a yote and up at that range.
Anyway, my point is this, with an extreme performance round, the main thing is to get the load that will do what you want to do and then get out and do practical field practice shooting and get off paper. Your rifle will last MUCH longer and you will get much better with your rifle as well.
DO NOT overheat your barrel if at all possible. IF you can not hold onto your barrel bare handed indefinately without discomfort from the heat of your barrel, your barrel is to hot, don't do that to your rifle.
In some rare hunting situations this will happen but its really rare. The key is to not do it on the bench when you have total control to just stop shooting for a while.
As far as barrel length on these chamberings. Many say that you have to have longer barrels to get the advantage of the larger chamberings, that is not true.
I have built enough high intensity handguns to know that no matter the length of the barrel, the larger chambering will be the fastest chambering no matter the barrel length. For example, in a 15" XP-100 barrel length, a 7mm Dakota will always best a 7mm WSM in velocity and a 7mm WSM will always top a 284 Winchester in velocity.
In a 26" barrel length, a 6mm-06 will always top a 6mm Rem in velocity as will a 6mm Rem top a 243 Win in the same length barrel.
The only advantage is that the longer the barrel is, the more dramatic the velocity gain will be for the larger chamberings but its not needed or required.
Remember, the 6-06 will be loaded to around 54-56 grains of powder which is alot of powder in a 6mm bore but its not 100 grains of powder.
Most will way a 25-06 will do extremely well in a 24" barrel length, yes the 6mm-06 is more extreme but not dramatically so do not fall into the barrel length issue, to be honest, its not as important as many would think.
My personal 6-06 has a 27" barrel length. I worked up loads with RL-22 that got up to 3500 fps with no primer pocket loosening at all until three firings on the case. Obviosuly this is still a high pressure load so I dropped back down to 3400 fps. This is more velocity then most would believe a 27" barrel length could get with this class of chambering.
If the barrel was cut to 26", you would likely loose 35 fps at tops.
26" of barrel length is plenty, again, remember we are only burning 55 grs or so of medium burn rate powders so do not think it will not perform in this length barrel.
Hell, for the 6mm AI, the best powders will be pretty much the same identical powders as the 6mm-06 so whatever barrel length it would be limited to, so will the 6mm-06.
Again, my only concerns with the 6mm Rem or its AI version is not performance, or accuracy. Its simply that it requires fireforming and that for a hunting rifle, why not get as much performance as you can? You will need a long action anyway if you want to seat long range bullets out to where they should be to not take up so much case capacity so why not go with a long action, use a chambering that feeds as well or better and has plenty of capacity to do anything you want without running pressures to redline.
Just my thoughts. More has been made about barrel length dependance then really exists. Its relatively common thinking that you will loose 50 fps per inch of barrel length. I hear this all the time from new customers coming in. In reality, of all the chamberings I have tested in different barrel length, the only one that came even remotely close to this is my 257 Allen Magnum loaded with a 100 gr bullet weight and it would average 42 fps lose per inch of barrel from 30" down to 26 fps.
Even my huge 338 Allen Magnum only looses around 35 fps per inch from 30" to 26 fps, again this is on average.
In reality, conventional chamberings, even the extreme ones will only loose from 15 to 25 fps per inch of barrel length from 30 to 26" in barrel length.
Simply put, 26" of barrel length will perform great for you in any of these three chamberings.
Some say a three shot groups is useless, those will use up more barrel life developing loads then anything else. Three shots in this class of rifle is plenty for groups. Plus, at the third shot, the barrel is ready for a break as far as bore temps. If you put that fourth and fifth shot through the bore you go from hot on the third shot to doing serious damage on the 4th and 5th shots, pointless and wasteful.
Also, if your one of those that have a case of "tinkeritis", that meaning those that believe there is that magical mystical load around the corner, DO NOT GO WITH ANY OF THESE. Most of my wildcats are not barrel friendly and I strongly recommend to my customers to find a "good" load that will do what you want and stop load development and get off paper at 100 yards. More barrels have been wasted on paper at 100 yards then from any other use looking for that "Best" load.
In all honesty, is you put the bullet on point of aim, there is no real difference between a 3/4 moa and a 1/2 moa rifle for a big game rifle or large varmint rifle. Its far more critical to get your drop chart accurate and your rifle set up to match your drop chart then it is to take 1/4 moa off the groups of your rifles.
If your rifle puts your first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim at 1000 yards, you will kill any critter from the size of a yote and up at that range.
Anyway, my point is this, with an extreme performance round, the main thing is to get the load that will do what you want to do and then get out and do practical field practice shooting and get off paper. Your rifle will last MUCH longer and you will get much better with your rifle as well.
DO NOT overheat your barrel if at all possible. IF you can not hold onto your barrel bare handed indefinately without discomfort from the heat of your barrel, your barrel is to hot, don't do that to your rifle.
In some rare hunting situations this will happen but its really rare. The key is to not do it on the bench when you have total control to just stop shooting for a while.
As far as barrel length on these chamberings. Many say that you have to have longer barrels to get the advantage of the larger chamberings, that is not true.
I have built enough high intensity handguns to know that no matter the length of the barrel, the larger chambering will be the fastest chambering no matter the barrel length. For example, in a 15" XP-100 barrel length, a 7mm Dakota will always best a 7mm WSM in velocity and a 7mm WSM will always top a 284 Winchester in velocity.
In a 26" barrel length, a 6mm-06 will always top a 6mm Rem in velocity as will a 6mm Rem top a 243 Win in the same length barrel.
The only advantage is that the longer the barrel is, the more dramatic the velocity gain will be for the larger chamberings but its not needed or required.
Remember, the 6-06 will be loaded to around 54-56 grains of powder which is alot of powder in a 6mm bore but its not 100 grains of powder.
Most will way a 25-06 will do extremely well in a 24" barrel length, yes the 6mm-06 is more extreme but not dramatically so do not fall into the barrel length issue, to be honest, its not as important as many would think.
My personal 6-06 has a 27" barrel length. I worked up loads with RL-22 that got up to 3500 fps with no primer pocket loosening at all until three firings on the case. Obviosuly this is still a high pressure load so I dropped back down to 3400 fps. This is more velocity then most would believe a 27" barrel length could get with this class of chambering.
If the barrel was cut to 26", you would likely loose 35 fps at tops.
26" of barrel length is plenty, again, remember we are only burning 55 grs or so of medium burn rate powders so do not think it will not perform in this length barrel.
Hell, for the 6mm AI, the best powders will be pretty much the same identical powders as the 6mm-06 so whatever barrel length it would be limited to, so will the 6mm-06.
Again, my only concerns with the 6mm Rem or its AI version is not performance, or accuracy. Its simply that it requires fireforming and that for a hunting rifle, why not get as much performance as you can? You will need a long action anyway if you want to seat long range bullets out to where they should be to not take up so much case capacity so why not go with a long action, use a chambering that feeds as well or better and has plenty of capacity to do anything you want without running pressures to redline.
Just my thoughts. More has been made about barrel length dependance then really exists. Its relatively common thinking that you will loose 50 fps per inch of barrel length. I hear this all the time from new customers coming in. In reality, of all the chamberings I have tested in different barrel length, the only one that came even remotely close to this is my 257 Allen Magnum loaded with a 100 gr bullet weight and it would average 42 fps lose per inch of barrel from 30" down to 26 fps.
Even my huge 338 Allen Magnum only looses around 35 fps per inch from 30" to 26 fps, again this is on average.
In reality, conventional chamberings, even the extreme ones will only loose from 15 to 25 fps per inch of barrel length from 30 to 26" in barrel length.
Simply put, 26" of barrel length will perform great for you in any of these three chamberings.
DCGS
Official LRH SPONSOR
Kirby, I would really like to have your opinion on the 6BR or 6BRX. You can the the same velocity on 105 and use only 36to 37g of powder. You have Lapua brass so very little or no prep needed so the loading would be very simple and fast.The BRX does have to be fire formed but you could even do that while hunting as the fire forming loads are equally accurate. You should have many loads before you ever wore the brass out. It seems I may know the advantages so maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong and point out the disadvantages. It seems that you have done a lot of testing on the 6mm and I respect your opinion. Thanks in advance, Dan
