600 yard ladder or 100 yard groups?

[StanB]

I usually have good results on factory rifles tuning at 200 yds, shooting 3-shots groups across the charge weight span, set with minor jump (.015-0.020), then fine tuning seating from there. With some bedding work, can usually sneak up on 1 moa.
​

I appreciate the benefits of the ladder test, but are they a reliable indicator for factory rifles that are decent shooters (let's say ~1 moa with some initial tuning, but definitely not 0.25 moa capable) ?? With a high quality barrel / rifle, the ladder test would save some time & ammo for sure.

My thought was that the variance in the placement of individual shots during ladder testing (with factory rifles) would introduce too much variability, due to the inherent group size at any particular charge weight. You could easily re-shoot the exact same ladder 3 times and come to 3 different conclusions.

Any thoughts from the group on this one??

 

[Greyfox]

I usually have good results on factory rifles tuning at 200 yds, shooting 3-shots groups across the charge weight span, set with minor jump (.015-0.020), then fine tuning seating from there. With some bedding work, can usually sneak up on 1 moa.
​

I appreciate the benefits of the ladder test, but are they a reliable indicator for factory rifles that are decent shooters (let's say ~1 moa with some initial tuning, but definitely not 0.25 moa capable) ?? With a high quality barrel / rifle, the ladder test would save some time & ammo for sure.

My thought was that the variance in the placement of individual shots during ladder testing (with factory rifles) would introduce too much variability, due to the inherent group size at any particular charge weight. You could easily re-shoot the exact same ladder 3 times and come to 3 different conclusions.

Any thoughts from the group on this one??

I wouldn't agree with your general statement about factory rifles. While it may be more of a "hit or miss" affair, and contrary to the the conventional wisdom, I have more then a few factory rifles that are as accurate, with velocity/ES that's comparable my custom barreled rifles, responding no differently to ladder testing.

 

[StanB]

...a few factory rifles that are as accurate, with velocity/ES that's comparable my custom barreled rifles, responding no differently to ladder testing.

That's interesting Greyfox, thanks. I haven't had a chrono, but am thinking about picking up a Magnetospeed.

 

[Greyfox]

That's interesting Greyfox, thanks. I haven't had a chrono, but am thinking about picking up a Magnetospeed.

The Magnetospeed is well worth the investment! Here are two that are particularly impressive for factory rifles, a Savage LRH that I have owned and used for 1000 yard Hunting or about 7 years and a Ruger PR used for !000+ yard PRS. I used 200 yard ladder tests to optimize both. The only notable difference with these factory barrels is that they take a bit longer then my customs to clean up due to the rougher bores.

 

[jasent]

I agree. I've gotten 1/4-1/3 moa from many factory rifles.

 

[6.5x284tony]

I have not read every post here. I will say that after 37 years of hand loading, the best 100 yard group for any particular rifle will not always, and in fact, will seldom be the best load at 200 yards. I always start at 200 yards and fine tune at 300.

Tony.

 

[trhall]

300 win mag, 27" barrel. Nosler brass, H-1000 powder, Berger 215's.
Here's where I am in my load development. I found a great accuracy node between 76.2 gr and 76.8 gr, .020 off the lands.
76.2 avg velocity 2930fps, SD-5.4 ES-10
76.5 avg velocity 2943, SD-3.1 ES-6
76.8 avg velocity 2944 SD-5.5 ES-11
So I was planning on loading up right in the middle at 76.5 grains. My question is the next step. I'm going to play with seating depth. 0.010-0.040 in 0.005 increments. Do I shoot a long distance ladder test to look for vertical dispersion, or shoot 100 yard groups?

A few years ago I changed to doing load development at 200 yards. One reason was the Bryan Litz promoted this to give Berger bullets more time to stabilize. Another reason is that at my range unless you have a Magnetospeed you cannot use a chrono so I do ladder tests at 200 and then take my most promising loads out to the desert and shoot them with my chrono at distance, 600 yards. Once chosen the most accurate and repeatable load I validate my dope with my G7 at 1,000. This has worked very well for me. I don't shoot competitions like PRS where you have time limits that force you to shoot with a heated barrel as alot of the guys on here do. I am primarily a long range hunter so I focus on 3 shot cold bore groups. This may not be the best method for guys shooting competitions like PRS but it works really well for me.
My number one concern as a hunter is for that first cold bore shot to be as accurate as possible and for follow-ups, if needed to be as close as possible to poi but I'm not willing to give up any cold bore accuracy just for the warmer barrel follow ups to make a tighter grouping if that makes sense.
By the way, I have 2 custom 300 win mags shooting 215 Bergers with H1000. You're load range is right in the wheel house for them. Somewhere between 100 and 150 rounds both of them picked up an additional 130 fps. This is something I wasn't aware of until I bought an R-Bros rifle and Travis told me to watch for this. Sure enough it happened to both of my rifles so I would expect that with your 27" barrel you should see over 3,000 fps once it's completely broke in.

R-Bros LWLRH .300 win mag
27" Broughton barrel
215 Berger .020 off
H1000, 76.2gr
Winchester Brass
CCI 250 Primer
Velocity 3043

Customized Mod 70 Win .300 win mag
27" Shilen barrel
215 Berger .020 off
H1000, 76.5gr
Winchester Brass
CCI 250 Primer
Velocity 3009

Here's 200 yard tgts

 

[odoylerules]

A few years ago I changed to doing load development at 200 yards. One reason was the Bryan Litz promoted this to give Berger bullets more time to stabilize. Another reason is that at my range unless you have a Magnetospeed you cannot use a chrono so I do ladder tests at 200 and then take my most promising loads out to the desert and shoot them with my chrono at distance, 600 yards. Once chosen the most accurate and repeatable load I validate my dope with my G7 at 1,000. This has worked very well for me. I don't shoot competitions like PRS where you have time limits that force you to shoot with a heated barrel as alot of the guys on here do. I am primarily a long range hunter so I focus on 3 shot cold bore groups. This may not be the best method for guys shooting competitions like PRS but it works really well for me.
My number one concern as a hunter is for that first cold bore shot to be as accurate as possible and for follow-ups, if needed to be as close as possible to poi but I'm not willing to give up any cold bore accuracy just for the warmer barrel follow ups to make a tighter grouping if that makes sense.
By the way, I have 2 custom 300 win mags shooting 215 Bergers with H1000. You're load range is right in the wheel house for them. Somewhere between 100 and 150 rounds both of them picked up an additional 130 fps. This is something I wasn't aware of until I bought an R-Bros rifle and Travis told me to watch for this. Sure enough it happened to both of my rifles so I would expect that with your 27" barrel you should see over 3,000 fps once it's completely broke in.

R-Bros LWLRH .300 win mag
27" Broughton barrel
215 Berger .020 off
H1000, 76.2gr
Winchester Brass
CCI 250 Primer
Velocity 3043

Customized Mod 70 Win .300 win mag
27" Shilen barrel
215 Berger .020 off
H1000, 76.5gr
Winchester Brass
CCI 250 Primer
Velocity 3009

Here's 200 yard tgts

When your barrel sped up, did your node change? In other words, did accuracy change at all? Did you have to make adjustments? Do all barrels do this I wonder?

 

[trhall]

When your barrel sped up, did your node change? In other words, did accuracy change at all? Did you have to make adjustments? Do all barrels do this I wonder?

I did not notice any shift in accuracy although have to make adjustments to velocity in my G7 for the profiles when I first noticed a shift in poi. I then shot over the chrono and saw an increase in velocity that matched what I was seeing on tgt. I don't recall the exact increases I saw on both rifles. Travis had told me to expect somewhere between 100 - 150 fps increase and I remember I did see over 100 fps on both. I would expect all barrels to do this to some degree although I don't have more than the two experiences I mentioned to verify this.

 

[odoylerules]

I did not notice any shift in accuracy although have to make adjustments to velocity in my G7 for the profiles when I first noticed a shift in poi. I then shot over the chrono and saw an increase in velocity that matched what I was seeing on tgt. I don't recall the exact increases I saw on both rifles. Travis had told me to expect somewhere between 100 - 150 fps increase and I remember I did see over 100 fps on both. I would expect all barrels to do this to some degree although I don't have more than the two experiences I mentioned to verify this.

If a particular accuracy node is at a given velocity window, I'd imagine a 100+fps increase in speed would change things up

 

[trhall]

If a particular accuracy node is at a given velocity window, I'd imagine a 100+fps increase in speed would change things up

Yes, you would think so but I did not see any significant shift. Then again, maybe I didn't shoot enough paper after this to notice. Unless I'm doing load development I don't spend alot of time punching paper preferring to spend my time shooting steel and hunting rocks at extended distances to hone my long range hunting skills.

 

[CPC280]

300 win mag, 27" barrel. Nosler brass, H-1000 powder, Berger 215's.
Here's where I am in my load development. I found a great accuracy node between 76.2 gr and 76.8 gr, .020 off the lands.
76.2 avg velocity 2930fps, SD-5.4 ES-10
76.5 avg velocity 2943, SD-3.1 ES-6
76.8 avg velocity 2944 SD-5.5 ES-11
So I was planning on loading up right in the middle at 76.5 grains. My question is the next step. I'm going to play with seating depth. 0.010-0.040 in 0.005 increments. Do I shoot a long distance ladder test to look for vertical dispersion, or shoot 100 yard groups?

 

[CPC280]

I was under the assumption that a ladder test was more related to whether or not the scope was mounted exactly perpendicular to the bore axis and tracking properly through the vertical and relative to what is actually dialed in with your elevation turret. Check out Brian Litz's Youtube video on performing a proper ladder test. I would say shoot for proper bullet grouping and precision then do your ladder test. If your scope is not tracking perfectly through the vertical then your group is going to move.

Thanks

 

[jasent]

There are many types of ladder tests