6.5 smk recovered

[liltank]

I guess this is kinda off topic but whats the difference between the SMK's and the VLD's?

The short answer is that they are designed differently. The VLD has what is called a Secant Ogive which allows the bullet to slice through the air better. VLD stands for Very Low Drag. They are favored by many (not all you accu-bond users) long range hunters because they retain velocity better at long range which also turns to more energy upon impact. Target shooters prefer them because they tend to buck the wind better due to a lower bearing surface for cross winds down range.

The SMK (Sierra Match King) uses what is called a Tangent Ogive. This is a little less effective at cutting through the air because it has a larger bearing surface. These bullets tend to have a lower BC (Ballistic Coefficient) than the VLD's.

Berger is the premium bullet dealer of the VLD, but other companies are starting to catch up. It use to be that Bergers 210grn VLD (BC .631 G1) was the power house standard of 30 caliber long range. Sierra now makes a 210 with an estimated BC of .645 G1. JLK produces a VLD in the 210 with a BC of .690+ G1. Hornady has a 208grn with a BC of .645 G1. So it is all relative. The biggest thing is figuring out what your gun likes.

Guess it really wasn't a short answer. Can't help myself when answering questions sometimes.

Tank

 

[Autorotate19]

Thanks for the info but as far as design and structure does the vld expand better on impact than the smk? Which one's hollow point is bigger? Jacket thickness, etc.... From what I understand both the VLD and the SMK were both initially designed to be match bullets and not intended hunting use. Obviously everyone has their opinion on that. I dont want to get in the argument. Correct me if Im wrong but has their been lots of problems with the VLD and its performance?

 

[elkaholic]

Both were designed as match bullets and you are are correct in the fact that opinions may start heated discussions on which one is the best. I think the jacket thickness and taper are very similar (in fact they both may be J4's)? The difference is in the ogive, which Tank accurately described. The meplat is slightly smaller on the berger. Now, my opinion. If I were using either on game at long range, I would try a shoulder shot to try to get expansion as lower velocity on these bullets gives "inconsistent expansion". If I were using them on game at closer ranges (especially elk sized) I would avoid a shoulder shot but go for the rib cage. If I REALLY wanted to not worry about the above mentioned, I would use my own.....Rich

 

[6BR4ME2]

Getting back to the original post ....

The bottom line here is that Bud Martin made an excellent shot in the goodie box
and the animal is done...

Thanks for sharing the pics and the original post

good luck and take care

 

[liltank]

Getting back to the original post ....

The bottom line here is that Bud Martin made an excellent shot in the goodie box
and the animal is done...

Thanks for sharing the pics and the original post

good luck and take care

Amen!

 

[elkaholic]

Good shooting Bud. If you can't hit'm you can't kill'm...Rich

 

[jwp475]

Plus 1...

I agree... good thread Bud. Very educational.

On the subject of small cal bullets vs big cal bullets.... I would much rather shoot a .277 bullet that expands into a deer or elk than a .338 cal bullet that does not expand or tumble, and tumbling is definitely not my preference for terminal effect.

A .338 bullet that does not expand, does not make a .338 cal hole. It creates a "temporary" wound channel, meaning, that as the bullet passes through, it "pushes" flesh aside rather than tearing and destroying it (permenant wound channel) The flesh then closes back in behind the unexpanded bullet leaving very little damage. Bigger cal bullets do not make up for nonexpanding bullets. Poor terminal performance is a recipie for lost game. It's not a matter of which to prefer... good accuracy or good terminal performance... In LRH you need BOTH.

Fact is a larger diameter non expanding bullet will always leave a larger diameter wound channel than will a smaller diameter bullet. All bullets (including expanding bullets) create a temporary wound channel


Bullet placement always trumps expansion, thus accuracy is the trump card. Non expanding bullets do indeed kill

 

[Michael Eichele]

JE, 50 and MTRM are all spot on here.

The deer and other critters may have died with those results yes but the bottom line is that it's a playing with fire senario. Sooner or later a loss will occur. That is not to say a loss cannot occur with expanding bullets but it is less likely to occur equal conditions for equal conditions. If youre ever going to hunt in very brushy and or rugged terrain and poke a pencil thin hole through the critter, there is a good chance you will not recover the game. No blood trail, a good distance traveled, etc.......The results are too unpredicatble for LR applications. I have had great SMK performance above 2000 FPS. Drop below that and forget it. At 2000 FPS the range isnt far enough to justify a SMK and when youre range is such that it is below 2000 FPS, it is useless.

Dead is dead and a loss is a loss. Hunting for hunting and target for target.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Fact is a larger diameter non expanding bullet will always leave a larger diameter wound channel than will a smaller diameter bullet. All bullets (including expanding bullets) create a temporary wound channel


Bullet placement always trumps expansion, thus accuracy is the trump card. Non expanding bullets do indeed kill

Never say "never" or "always".

First off, I want both accuracy/placement *and* expansion. That's why I hunt with bullets that are designed to expand. Given the opportunity, I will always go for the double lung shot with a good expanding bullet which will cause a good deal of cavitation and hemoraging, which in-turn will result in a relatively quick death with very good chances of a recovered game animal. I haven't lost one yet to the double lung and all went down very quick, usually within a couple of steps but never more than 50 yards (with a 300 WSM, 7mm RM and just recently a 25-06)

If I had used a pointy, non expanding type bullet s on these double lung placed shots, what do you suppose the results would have been? I believe many of thes animals would have run a looooong way, especially the 900 lb bull elk, and he was heading down hill in some very rugged country. Instead, he piled up on his first leap. Not only would they run a long way, but they would also leave little to no blood trail.

I would have to agree that if bullet placement meant a head shot, or spine shot, the results would obvious. In a heart shot, any projetile will porduce a fairly quick result but a semi destroyed heart will have a little quicker result than one that is just pierced. Is that what you mean by placement? Are you saying one should plan on using a non-expanding bullet @ 1000 yds and place it in the heart, brain or spine? When it comes to a heart shot, not only do you need an accurate rifle, you need to accurately dope the conditons and identify it's location depending on the angle you're shooting. A deer heart is a little bigger than a baseball. So are you suggesting planning and making a 1000 yd heart shot with a 6.5 SMK (or 338 SMK) on a deer that does not have an orange POA spot sprayed on its hide? Thank you, but I'll take an expanding bullet and attempt to place it through the lungs. And BTW, a 1/2 mph breeze will move your bullet about 4-6" away form your baseball size target.


I'm not exactley sure what you're saying here...???

Fact is a larger diameter non expanding bullet will always leave a larger diameter wound channel than will a smaller diameter bullet.

If you're comparing non expanding larger to non expanding smaller that's true.

But if you're comparing a non expanding .338 to an expanding .277, you're very wrong.... on two counts. First, asuming the .277 expands to 1.5 or greater than it's original diameter, that is a .41 diameter projetile vs a .338 diameter projectile. Second, the expanded blunt frontal shape will cause a MUCH larger permanent wound cavity than the pointy frontal area of the nonexpanded projectile.

All bullets (including expanding bullets) create a temporary wound channel

All bullets make both a temporary and permanent wound channel. Animal tissue is elastic (other than bone) When a bullet passes through an animal some of the tissue is crushed/destroyed which is permenant wound channel and some of it is stretched as a result of hydraulic shock - this is temporary wound channel. A non expanding bullet will leave very little permenant wound channel. As the pointy bullet passes through, it stretches the elastic tissue which comes back to shape. Here are a couple of very good articles on the subject...

Terminal Ballistics

Terminal Ballistics

Terminal Ballistics

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it seems you are paddling up a creek I wouldn't venture to.

Mark

 

[jwp475]

When I was in high school and young and since no one had told me that FMJ pointed mlitary bullets would not kill myself, my brothers and cousin killed quite few Deer an hogs with them. None were lost in the field and none of them got out of the freezer and got away.


Shot placement trumps all else, always has amd always will

 

[MontanaRifleman]

When I was in high school and young and since no one had told me that FMJ pointed mlitary bullets would not kill myself, my brothers and cousin killed quite few Deer an hogs with them. None were lost in the field and none of them got out of the freezer and got away.


Shot placement trumps all else, always has amd always will

Well then, I suggest you hunt with these. They would be far superior to the SMK's ballistically in range and bucking wind....

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - SP LONG RANGE BULLETS

The GS SP 267 be a good one for the .338 Lapua... If you can get 2750 fps with the 300 SMK, then you would almost certainly get 3000 fps (maybe more) with the 267 SP which would have an average BC of about .86 out to 1500 yds vs the 300 SMK BC of .76. At 1500 yds and 5000' elevation, the 267 SP would have 1730 fps ov velocity, 1780 ftlb of energy, a drop od 35 MOA and 5 mph wind drift of 42". The SMK would have 1430 fps of velocity, 1370 ftlbs of energy, 45 MOA of drop and 56" of drfit in a 5 mph wind. The 267 SP leaves the 300 SMK waaaaay behind. If I wanted to pencil hole game at LR, this is a bullet I would do it with. In fact, if you used a 10 twist, you could just about guarantee some tumbling as the CG of the SP is very much aft.

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Specifications for use

 

[liltank]

I just wish you didn't have to sell your first born to get them shipped here. I love my little booger, hate to give him up for some bullets. Maybe they will take the father-in-law! He'd make great lion bait!

Tank

 

[Buffalobob]

Here are a couple of very good articles on the subject...

Terminal Ballistics

Terminal Ballistics

Terminal Ballistics

I read his stuff several years ago and I read it again. It is interesting and he makes some good points and has some good data.

Couple of peculiar points that seem strange to me. He spends time discrediting other peoples work because they are not scientific enough and then he follows right down the same path. I do not know if he thinks people are not smart enough to understand his own deviations from science or he just doesn't have the personal integrity to deal with things honestly.

The 10 second to death time he selects is artificial and allows him to make his second assumption which is that the bullet is placed in the chest cavity behind the shoulder. Thus he gets around the mechanical issue of having to break the shoulder bone and actually work with momentum and energy. It also allows him to make the assumption that a deers chest is uniform and close to the density of water and a fluid.. This allows him to go into fluid dynamics because now the deer is a uniform fluid mass instead of a heterogeneous assemblage of hide, bones, lung, air, blood and muscle.

The point I wonder about is that he is in the profession of designing body armor so he clearly knows the mechanical side of bullets and hard objects yet he studiously avoids it in his work. In the end, I concluded that what he really wanted was not a theory to explain bullets in animals but a theory to explain bullets in wet phone books. Thus we go back to the initial thought of why did he spend time running down other peoples work. None of the other people cared anything about wet phone books.

He spends a lot of time collecting a lot of good data on bullets and I learned some things from it but in my experience you just cannot ignore the bone structure of an animal (except for antelope).

 

[jwp475]

Well then, I suggest you hunt with these. They would be far superior to the SMK's ballistically in range and bucking wind....

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - SP LONG RANGE BULLETS

The GS SP 267 be a good one for the .338 Lapua... If you can get 2750 fps with the 300 SMK, then you would almost certainly get 3000 fps (maybe more) with the 267 SP which would have an average BC of about .86 out to 1500 yds vs the 300 SMK BC of .76. At 1500 yds and 5000' elevation, the 267 SP would have 1730 fps ov velocity, 1780 ftlb of energy, a drop od 35 MOA and 5 mph wind drift of 42". The SMK would have 1430 fps of velocity, 1370 ftlbs of energy, 45 MOA of drop and 56" of drfit in a 5 mph wind. The 267 SP leaves the 300 SMK waaaaay behind. If I wanted to pencil hole game at LR, this is a bullet I would do it with. In fact, if you used a 10 twist, you could just about guarantee some tumbling as the CG of the SP is very much aft.

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Specifications for use

Have you acctually verified the BC for the GS Custom bullet? They are inflated to say the least.

Hee are a very few of the game that I have taken with the SMK all were one shot kills and they are still dead, none of them came back to life

How much experience do you have useing the SMK on game? Just currious.