SansSouci
Well-Known Member
Hi CoasttoCoast,
You're welcome. And I hope you wind up with exactly what you want. It makes hunting a lot more fun when we're hunting with a trusted hunting rifle.
After visiting this site, I have a more clear picture of the dichotomy of the two styles of hunting. Actually pursuing game will require much different equipment than long range shooting. Big game were blessed with big senses, especially hearing and smell. To hunt them a hunter will have to be in pretty good physical condition. He will have to be prepared to move in an instant. Yet when he moves, he will have to do so silently. He will have to have patience to give big game a false sense of security. He will have to know when to stalk and when to stand motionless. And above all, when he is presented with a shot, he will have to be prepared to shoot fast & accurately.
As I have written about in anther post, the guy who might have been the best hunter I know, hunted with a Mark 5 .300 Wby Mag, an inter-zipcode cartridge. He has hunted throughout the Rockies and Alaska. His rifle weighed a good 10 pounds with a 26" barrel. Even though his rifle was capable of shooting a 1000 yards, he preferred to shoot a hundred yards. When one shot is prayer, a wise hunter will do all possible to make that one shot count. He obviously did...most of the time. I've been inside of his trophy room. One of the first things he taught me was close distance. While range shooting, he told me that we were going hunting, not target shooting. He was good with 2" MOA with his Mark 5 .270 Wby Mag, the rifle that replaced his .300 Wby Mag when recoil became an issue. He KNEW he could kill what he wanted to kill because he was confident of his hunting skill. To him, shooting culminated his hunting skill.
Were I pressed into a corner, I'd say that the .280 Rem is my favorite cartridge. .284 caliber bullets have exceptional sectional densities and ballistic coefficients, and the .280 Rem comes with a 22" barrel. I don't own a .280 Rem. The .270 Win is darn near as good. It will kill all big game in North America. It's easy on shoulders when bench shooting. It comes in 22" barrels. Guns cambered for them are lightweight & fast handling.
Based upon my experience of Rocky Mountain hunting, I'd go with a fast handling rifle with a barrel no longer than 24". 22" is better. I'm even thinking of finding an 18.5" barreled rifle in .308 Win. Be prepared to get off a very fast and extremely accurate shot at a bedded mule deer. When he detects you huntin' him, he ain't gonna stick around. You might not notice him until he rises to run, which will be your best shot, and it might be a very close shot though some very think stuff.
In my early years of hunting Utah, there was a camp not far from us. A lot of hunters in that camp used Model 94's. I figured out why in a hurry. When you have to go into thick stuff to hunt big deer, a fast-handling shot has a whole lot of value. BTW, that camp always had a whole lot of deer hanging. I have seen a lot of hunters using .308 Win levers & bolt actions in the same area. Big deer in October rarely show themselves. If you want one, you gotta go get one.
This is no intention of disparaging the long range guys, but it is an attempt to explain the realities of Rocky Mountain hunting. Big deer and elk get that way by not cooperating. They do no present themselves for long range shots except during mid-September when you can find bucks grazing way, way, way up high in mountain bowls and rutting bulls in timber. A long range, heavy gun would be a detriment unless carrying 20+ pounds right below timberlines sounds appealing. Believe me, taking a leak at that altitude is difficult. The goal on such Wyoming hunts is to move slowly, silently, and carefully. When a buck puts his head down to graze, inch closer. And keep in mind that pullin' a 250lb buck out of a high mountain bowl will take the better part of a day & you will say cuss words that you didn't know were in your vocabulary. And the reality is perfect Rocky Mountain conditions for long range shooting are more rare than hen's teeth.
The first time I went after high mountain September bucks, I took my 10lb 7MM Rem Mag. Funny thing was locals were using lightweight .308 Wins. I learned real quick why. When I came back from that trip, I bought a Featherweight .308 Win. A 7MM-08 would have been a better idea except there are mean (read: griz) bears up there.
In the end, I'd like to politely recommend that it might be a good idea to envision the totalities of hunting you plan to do. I know that there are plenty of places where cross-canyon shooting is possible. If you're in excellent shape and are certain you can retrieve your buck, do what's right for you & I'll support you. As for me, I won't shoot the new B&C world record mule deer unless I KNOW I can retrieve him. If I can't, I'll hunt him every day until either he makes a mistake and gives me a shot at him where I know I can get him, or I accept the fact that he got to be B&C world record material by being smarter than his predators.
Hunters, and I right in the thick of this, will go with cartridges for sentimental reasons. I know the .280 Rem is darn close to the perfect cartridge of all North American big game hunting, but my loyalty is to the .270 Win because it was the first big game hunting cartridge I've owned. But then again, there is no North American big game animal that I wouldn't hunt with my .270 Win as long as I know I can screw with its oxygenated blood pumping apparatus. And it will shoot father than I can. Better yet, I can get optimal performance with a 22" barrel.
However, because it will be your hunting adventures that matters most here, go with a cartridge that you really like. The reality is any suitable big game cartridge will kill all North American big game if a hunter puts a bullet into the part that pumps oxygenated blood to an animal's brain. Nothing vertical remains that way without its brain receiving oxygenated blood. And a .260 Rem will reliably destroy oxygenated blood pumping parts. The 6.5 Swede has been doing it on Scandinavian moose for over a century.
I do own a short-action .308 Win. The reality is that what WildRose posted is true, at least it is for me. There really is no noticeable difference between short & long action rifles. But I could sure appreciate an 18.5" barreled .308 Win when I have to hunt bedded game in thick stuff, and that's where bedded big game will always feather: in thick stuff. My primary Utah hunting buddy is giving serious consideration to buying a very fast handling, open-sighted, short barreled, .44 Rem Mag lever action for hunting bedded big game. He might be on to something. Otherwise, he hunts with a 7MM Rem Mag.
One final thought: I've just read of an old-timer who lived in Wyoming who had killed everything he hunted, including elk & moose, with a Model 94 .30-30 Win. There's an old hunter's saying of the hunter who owns but one rifle knows how to use it. I love rifles, but I wish I were the one-rifle hunter. I'm fixin' to become one. And it will be my Sako AV .270 Win.
One more one final thought: I know nothing of long range shooting, so I can't give you an opinion about bullets for such shooting. However, the gold standard for Rocky Mountain big game is the Nosler Partition. For mule deer size game, any bullet will work. I've recently gone back to Sierra GameKing for mule deer. I will use the same bullet if I am drawn for desert big horn next year. From what I've been told, I have a better than fair chance of picking up what has been called the most difficult big game tag to draw.
I do wish you the best of luck and a whole lot of successful and memorable hunting seasons. Maybe we might cross mule deer paths next year in Nevada. If so, I'll help you pull out a huge buck that you've killed.
My absolute best,
SS
You're welcome. And I hope you wind up with exactly what you want. It makes hunting a lot more fun when we're hunting with a trusted hunting rifle.
After visiting this site, I have a more clear picture of the dichotomy of the two styles of hunting. Actually pursuing game will require much different equipment than long range shooting. Big game were blessed with big senses, especially hearing and smell. To hunt them a hunter will have to be in pretty good physical condition. He will have to be prepared to move in an instant. Yet when he moves, he will have to do so silently. He will have to have patience to give big game a false sense of security. He will have to know when to stalk and when to stand motionless. And above all, when he is presented with a shot, he will have to be prepared to shoot fast & accurately.
As I have written about in anther post, the guy who might have been the best hunter I know, hunted with a Mark 5 .300 Wby Mag, an inter-zipcode cartridge. He has hunted throughout the Rockies and Alaska. His rifle weighed a good 10 pounds with a 26" barrel. Even though his rifle was capable of shooting a 1000 yards, he preferred to shoot a hundred yards. When one shot is prayer, a wise hunter will do all possible to make that one shot count. He obviously did...most of the time. I've been inside of his trophy room. One of the first things he taught me was close distance. While range shooting, he told me that we were going hunting, not target shooting. He was good with 2" MOA with his Mark 5 .270 Wby Mag, the rifle that replaced his .300 Wby Mag when recoil became an issue. He KNEW he could kill what he wanted to kill because he was confident of his hunting skill. To him, shooting culminated his hunting skill.
Were I pressed into a corner, I'd say that the .280 Rem is my favorite cartridge. .284 caliber bullets have exceptional sectional densities and ballistic coefficients, and the .280 Rem comes with a 22" barrel. I don't own a .280 Rem. The .270 Win is darn near as good. It will kill all big game in North America. It's easy on shoulders when bench shooting. It comes in 22" barrels. Guns cambered for them are lightweight & fast handling.
Based upon my experience of Rocky Mountain hunting, I'd go with a fast handling rifle with a barrel no longer than 24". 22" is better. I'm even thinking of finding an 18.5" barreled rifle in .308 Win. Be prepared to get off a very fast and extremely accurate shot at a bedded mule deer. When he detects you huntin' him, he ain't gonna stick around. You might not notice him until he rises to run, which will be your best shot, and it might be a very close shot though some very think stuff.
In my early years of hunting Utah, there was a camp not far from us. A lot of hunters in that camp used Model 94's. I figured out why in a hurry. When you have to go into thick stuff to hunt big deer, a fast-handling shot has a whole lot of value. BTW, that camp always had a whole lot of deer hanging. I have seen a lot of hunters using .308 Win levers & bolt actions in the same area. Big deer in October rarely show themselves. If you want one, you gotta go get one.
This is no intention of disparaging the long range guys, but it is an attempt to explain the realities of Rocky Mountain hunting. Big deer and elk get that way by not cooperating. They do no present themselves for long range shots except during mid-September when you can find bucks grazing way, way, way up high in mountain bowls and rutting bulls in timber. A long range, heavy gun would be a detriment unless carrying 20+ pounds right below timberlines sounds appealing. Believe me, taking a leak at that altitude is difficult. The goal on such Wyoming hunts is to move slowly, silently, and carefully. When a buck puts his head down to graze, inch closer. And keep in mind that pullin' a 250lb buck out of a high mountain bowl will take the better part of a day & you will say cuss words that you didn't know were in your vocabulary. And the reality is perfect Rocky Mountain conditions for long range shooting are more rare than hen's teeth.
The first time I went after high mountain September bucks, I took my 10lb 7MM Rem Mag. Funny thing was locals were using lightweight .308 Wins. I learned real quick why. When I came back from that trip, I bought a Featherweight .308 Win. A 7MM-08 would have been a better idea except there are mean (read: griz) bears up there.
In the end, I'd like to politely recommend that it might be a good idea to envision the totalities of hunting you plan to do. I know that there are plenty of places where cross-canyon shooting is possible. If you're in excellent shape and are certain you can retrieve your buck, do what's right for you & I'll support you. As for me, I won't shoot the new B&C world record mule deer unless I KNOW I can retrieve him. If I can't, I'll hunt him every day until either he makes a mistake and gives me a shot at him where I know I can get him, or I accept the fact that he got to be B&C world record material by being smarter than his predators.
Hunters, and I right in the thick of this, will go with cartridges for sentimental reasons. I know the .280 Rem is darn close to the perfect cartridge of all North American big game hunting, but my loyalty is to the .270 Win because it was the first big game hunting cartridge I've owned. But then again, there is no North American big game animal that I wouldn't hunt with my .270 Win as long as I know I can screw with its oxygenated blood pumping apparatus. And it will shoot father than I can. Better yet, I can get optimal performance with a 22" barrel.
However, because it will be your hunting adventures that matters most here, go with a cartridge that you really like. The reality is any suitable big game cartridge will kill all North American big game if a hunter puts a bullet into the part that pumps oxygenated blood to an animal's brain. Nothing vertical remains that way without its brain receiving oxygenated blood. And a .260 Rem will reliably destroy oxygenated blood pumping parts. The 6.5 Swede has been doing it on Scandinavian moose for over a century.
I do own a short-action .308 Win. The reality is that what WildRose posted is true, at least it is for me. There really is no noticeable difference between short & long action rifles. But I could sure appreciate an 18.5" barreled .308 Win when I have to hunt bedded game in thick stuff, and that's where bedded big game will always feather: in thick stuff. My primary Utah hunting buddy is giving serious consideration to buying a very fast handling, open-sighted, short barreled, .44 Rem Mag lever action for hunting bedded big game. He might be on to something. Otherwise, he hunts with a 7MM Rem Mag.
One final thought: I've just read of an old-timer who lived in Wyoming who had killed everything he hunted, including elk & moose, with a Model 94 .30-30 Win. There's an old hunter's saying of the hunter who owns but one rifle knows how to use it. I love rifles, but I wish I were the one-rifle hunter. I'm fixin' to become one. And it will be my Sako AV .270 Win.
One more one final thought: I know nothing of long range shooting, so I can't give you an opinion about bullets for such shooting. However, the gold standard for Rocky Mountain big game is the Nosler Partition. For mule deer size game, any bullet will work. I've recently gone back to Sierra GameKing for mule deer. I will use the same bullet if I am drawn for desert big horn next year. From what I've been told, I have a better than fair chance of picking up what has been called the most difficult big game tag to draw.
I do wish you the best of luck and a whole lot of successful and memorable hunting seasons. Maybe we might cross mule deer paths next year in Nevada. If so, I'll help you pull out a huge buck that you've killed.
My absolute best,
SS
