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585 HE -- Barrels of Cases --
- Thread starter hubel458
- Start date
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Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.
Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.
Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.
Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.
Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed
Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone.
We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic
1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper
Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at
high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in
same gun with inserts.
Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585
barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone.
We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic
1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper
Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at
high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in
same gun with inserts.
Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585
barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.
You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.
Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
easy like the new ones from Bertram.
Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.
There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.
We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.
We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
For the 585 it comes out about 10
Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.
ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi
Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.
Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
but kept it all simple
ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi
The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.
Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted
easy like the new ones from Bertram.
Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.
There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.
We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.
We simplified it to get the 12 figure, It is inverse of the bore dia x 5
For the 585 it comes out about 10
Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.
ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi
Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.
Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case. Could use 10 in place of 12,
but kept it all simple
ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi
The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed
Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.
Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.
We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made
now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger.
Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.
Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.
We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made
now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger.
Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed
There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..
Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed bullets as 585HE.
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed
PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
set up to use them in. .
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..
Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed bullets as 585HE.
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed
PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
set up to use them in. .
I used tang action77 magnum and a MkII mag action.
Rim .654".. The RSM is best.
Savage will work have figure out a different kind of extractor.
Savage has more room like the Enfields and MRC PH.
Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
There soon will be 3 reamers there.
And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au.
WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
own headstamp.Ed
Rim .654".. The RSM is best.
Savage will work have figure out a different kind of extractor.
Savage has more room like the Enfields and MRC PH.
Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
There soon will be 3 reamers there.
And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au.
WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
own headstamp.Ed
We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam under butt pad.
We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those heavy
powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
pictured I use as one of my test guns.
And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
around like a weathervane.. Ed
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads. Prices are nice and they have
aluminum pillars and/or aluminum bedding blocks.
And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute.
We now using rubber coated mouse balls that we have bunch of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and the right weight.
They add just the right weight and and wedge in good.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam under butt pad.
We get asked about how much speed potential we have. And
we start by mentioning cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out longer. And we have those heavy
powder loads with 650 gr jacketed bullets, in the Enfield
pictured I use as one of my test guns.
And more fun shooting, using a pistol grip on one of the
585HE falling block test guns. Real heavy loads try to spin us
around like a weathervane.. Ed
Cold Trigger Finger
Well-Known Member
Awesome thread Hubel ! I always amazed at your ingenuity .
I do think the 585 HE with a 650-700 gr soft nose or mono metal expanding bullet at 2100+ fps would be ideal for those 20' or closer fights with a big and mean brown bear in extremely dense brush like we have in Southeast Alaska. . Could that velocity be got from a 20" barrel?
In an 11 lb rifle how is the recoil compared to a 500 A-Square ??
I do think the 585 HE with a 650-700 gr soft nose or mono metal expanding bullet at 2100+ fps would be ideal for those 20' or closer fights with a big and mean brown bear in extremely dense brush like we have in Southeast Alaska. . Could that velocity be got from a 20" barrel?
In an 11 lb rifle how is the recoil compared to a 500 A-Square ??
Cold Trigger Finger
Well-Known Member
Also. Have you seen the new Richardson+Roberts action? . Matt Roberts is a friend of mine and wants me to have him build me a rifle on one of their actions. I think the largest size they make would fit the 585 HE nicely.
2100 with a 650gr easy to get from short barrel, you can get
2700 if you want with 650 gr in short barrel.
at 2100 recoil in 11lb gun be moderate.
I haven't seen that action, can you post info and pictures about his large action.
A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga
plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.
The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr.
Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have
to wait for them to be made.
Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed
2700 if you want with 650 gr in short barrel.
at 2100 recoil in 11lb gun be moderate.
I haven't seen that action, can you post info and pictures about his large action.
A related case to our 585 is the 24ga FH that has 3" chamber and
brass cases reworked 577NE cases, that we reduce the rim down
to .720"... the 24ga size rim...We make minimum chamber so that 24ga
plastic cases, 2.5" long just fit. And min chamber cuts down on a lot
of brass case expansion, which the wears cases out.
The barrels are same bore barrels as our 585 and the hollowbase minie
bullets work great in it, the ones that are .585", 440gr to 540gr.
Makes hairy 24ga gun for deer, etc. Be useful in shotgun only areas.
Guys on GB sells the .585" minies. And the brass cases, we don't have
to wait for them to be made.
Here is what 585HE barrel and its monoblock look like before
screwing the barrel in.This one was 585HE, but process same if
monoblocking in 24ga FH...Ed
Here is picture of 585HE with 24ga FH ...585 the longer one.
Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.
Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases. A press
in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.
Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.
For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
Usually need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being
too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed
Both use same bullets/slugs, same caliber rifled barrels.
Different easy usages, 24ga FH is an easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.
Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
someone pulled out, and they wouldn't stay in tight after pulled.
Supposed to be for 20ga, But this sabot was a real loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, so I shrunk diameter of bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE brass cases. A press
in tight fit gives good resistance for good ignition. real tight fit.
Here is a 24ga/585 discarding sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With 250 gr bullet in 585HE, hopped up load will go about mach 4.
For ease of getting actions in stocks, I like composites.They are
strong. come colors, many can be painted with tough finish paints.
Usually need weight added for big bore use. But not too miuch..
An easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect, without being
too heavy if using that much lead. And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in, with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed
Also now lower Michigan shotgun only area is being allowed to
use short pistol cases in rifles, like Indiana, so if folks want big power with rifled
barrel, good accuracy, go a 24ga FH with rifled barrel , long brass cases.
Why lose power, just do a hairy 24ga... With good brass cases..Ed
use short pistol cases in rifles, like Indiana, so if folks want big power with rifled
barrel, good accuracy, go a 24ga FH with rifled barrel , long brass cases.
Why lose power, just do a hairy 24ga... With good brass cases..Ed
