45-70 bullets for elk

[Varmint Hunter]

Thanks everyone...good to hear about the Barnes. I will look again, but haven't seen Speer or Swift in stock since buying the rifle 2 years ago. Luckily I bought brass on a whim over 10 years ago, well before I got the rifle. I'll keep looking, maybe try the hammer bullets as well. Happy new year to all of you!

If you want to try the Swift 350 A-Frame drop me a PM. I've got plenty of them.

 

[Ua26fitter]

I will see if I can get them. There was such a huge difference already in the animals I shot with the full power hornady 300g hp and the lead slugs at 13-1400fps. I'd like that performance, but with a bullet that holds up better and gives an exit/wound channel. I didn't realize 2600 was achievable with a lever, pretty awesome. Good to hear there are options...

Not all guns are equal in the 45-70 so you know the drill. Start low and work up.
I found the info for the load with a 250 Barnes on their web page.

You can find more info on the 250 SH on the Hammer time forum.

Kris

 

[Tac-O]

first tried Missouri Bullet Co 405 RNFP #1 buffalo, brinell 18...so that's self explanatory I guess, optimized for buffalo, not so much for deer/hogs. Next was two from Montana Bullet Works, 405 FN LA and 405 FN PB. Their #2 alloy, BHN 15, still made a pencil hole through one deer, double lung, no blood trail. I didn't recover the hog, was just shooting it to remove him. He did leave an ok blood trail for 75 yards. I'm thinking these may both be fine, but I also made a new front sight for the rifle when I upped velocity in the lighter bullets. Also I realize 4 animals is not enough to determine much of anything...

That's good to know. I shoot the Missouri bullet company number one Buffalo out of my Winchester 1886 45-90 (modern miroku mfg). I d lube their bullets and then use Emirates to lube them, as I shoot black powder with them at about 1450 fps. I haven't yet hunted with them, although elk is the target.

I have shot the Hornady 300 grain hp with smokeless out of mine, up to about 2,300 FPS. I had also planned on using those for elk, but seeing as they completely exploded inside deer for you, I think I'll rethink that for Elk or down load it very significantly

 

[wild_musk]

That's good to know. I shoot the Missouri bullet company number one Buffalo out of my Winchester 1886 45-90 (modern miroku mfg). I d lube their bullets and then use Emirates to lube them, as I shoot black powder with them at about 1450 fps. I haven't yet hunted with them, although elk is the target.

I have shot the Hornady 300 grain hp with smokeless out of mine, up to about 2,300 FPS. I had also planned on using those for elk, but seeing as they completely exploded inside deer for you, I think I'll rethink that for Elk or down load it very significantly

That's just my extremely limited experience with them...I won't hesitate to keep shooting them at whitails and hogs. It would be interesting to know if the 300g hornady hp are designed to open at lead velocities, which could explain it or simply be anecdotal. But I don't know much...I'm not suggesting anyone steer away from anything. FWIW.

 

[wild_musk]

If you want to try the Swift 350 A-Frame drop me a PM. I've got plenty of them.

Thanks very much!

 

[purpledragon]

That's good to know. I shoot the Missouri bullet company number one Buffalo out of my Winchester 1886 45-90 (modern miroku mfg). I d lube their bullets and then use Emirates to lube them, as I shoot black powder with them at about 1450 fps. I haven't yet hunted with them, although elk is the target.

I have shot the Hornady 300 grain hp with smokeless out of mine, up to about 2,300 FPS. I had also planned on using those for elk, but seeing as they completely exploded inside deer for you, I think I'll rethink that for Elk or down load it very significantly

The Hammers won't explode on ya at that velocity.....

 

[wild_musk]

Not all guns are equal in the 45-70 so you know the drill. Start low and work up.
I found the info for the load with a 250 Barnes on their web page.

You can find more info on the 250 SH on the Hammer time forum.

Kris

Thanks Kris, my rifle is a modern 1886, and I'm not looking to push it. I will check out the Hammer forum, I saw they have several weights, 250, 276, 300 etc.

 

[Hoss50]

I loaded some 325gr RNSP from hornady for a guy years ago. His granddaughter smoked a cow elk with them no problem.

 

[purpledragon]

Thanks Kris, my rifle is a modern 1886, and I'm not looking to push it. I will check out the Hammer forum, I saw they have several weights, 250, 276, 300 etc.

Just can't imagine what kind of death medicine the 447 SH
would be on an Elk or anything for that matter....

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Just can't imagine what kind of death medicine the 447 SH
would be on an Elk or anything for that matter....

I think something around 300gr would be a good compromise. The really big monos will result in low velocity and rainbow like trajectories when fired from a 45-70. However, I was able to get the 402gr Hammer up to 1,700 ft/sec if that works for the OP.

 

[Ugly Dog]

I like the the old 405 grain lead gas checked cast when I want a heavy hitter through and through. Otherwise I use Speer 350 flat nose. I run them up there when I do and I only shoot out of strong actions both brownies in 86 and a 85 highwall

 

[Dean2]

I have shot every 45 caliber jacketed bullet sold in Canada, and a whole wack of cast, through a 45-70. For accuracy, penetration and performance a 350 Grain Hornady Round nose at 1500-1600 FPS is my go to and all time favourite. It will go length wise through bear, through both shoulders of a Moose and long quartering through Elk. It expands well at the lower velocities and leaves a good exit and blood trail. More speed just kicks you harder, it doesn't kill or penetrate any better. I have posted this before but it is worth seeing.

This is by Randy Garret of Garret Ammunition Manufacturers.
https://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS

The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.
Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.
- Randy Garrett

The effect of speed on incapacitation is typically called Hydrostatic shock. That effect does not happen with projectiles trraveling less than 2500 FPS. It is why Roy Weatherby built the beast of cartridge that is the 460 Weatherby Magnum. I own one in a left hand action MKV. It produces awesome recoil, it is the only rifle I own that has a brake on it. Despite all the roaring, flame and drama it does not kill any faster than my 45-70 and I have shot a lot of bears with both. I have also shot bears with a 45-70 loaded from1100 FPS to 2000. I can tell you from experience the sweat spot is 1400-1500 fps for quick kills, reasonably flat trajectory, at least by 45-70 standards, and quick second shot recovery. My favourite load is a Hornady 350 grain RN over 3031 powder at 1500 fps.

 

[wild_musk]

I learned about gas checks the hard way...funny, there's no mention in the charts in my lyman manual about going beyond whatever velocity without them, and I just loaded up whatever moderate charge for 405g bullets. I was spraying lead everywhere lol. Diff forum, guys were like, yeah, you can't do that.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Just for reference - here is the 402gr SH bullet.