375/408 Banded Solids Test

[kellyzier]

KZ,
It is in fact the new 414SP. You should answer your phone sometime, or check your messages. Gerard said he will start working on the HV (High Velocity hollow point) version when all the current orders are filled and the customers are 100% satisfied. He does know of your order, and I will keep up with everyone on these personally, as this is really my personal project...and I just love it.

By the way, this is actually the very first one ever made. Would you believe Gerard is so good at this that it came within .003mm and .4 grains? That is better then any other company, Berger included, holds it's prime production tolerances...and we made it secondary! I'm keeping it just as a conversation piece, and a token to one of my favorite projects.

-AP

Anthony,,,The bullet looks awesome!!!! On the phone deal, my phone is on 16 hrs a day, not sure why nobody could get in contact with me. Perhaps you have the wrong number. I will call you today and make sure you have the right number. I checked my messages and have none.

On another note, I don't want to delay on the hallow points, so let's take the order and make half of them solids like everyone else. I want to get to shooting these as soon as they ship. I talked with Dave V and he's waiting for them as well. He and I have communicated about this solid and we have some other ideas for it pending the outcome.

thanks
kz

 

[Extremist458]

KZ,

Yes, I did have the wrong number, your work number or something. Thanks for sorting that out. I'll be sure to post the results from Dave as soon as he tests them, if he doesn't do so first. Sorry things have been taking so long, but our shop has been so busy Gerard has had no time to make any more until now. I will be sending them to Dave as soon as they come in. Also, HV (High Velocity Hollow Point) design is done, but we will wait for Dave's tests to post before we make and ship them. GS Custom bullets has the highest reputation, and we don't want to change that. I did get a chance to talk to Dave today and we are up to speed. Will let Gerard know about the 355HV's as well. That and he just finished up his 150gr 7mm HV today, so he's been busy!

Augustus, you've been hangin' with Noel too long. After Dave posts his results, you are more then welcome to order as many as you would like. You're welcome, and I'll be sure to send your appreciation to Gerard. It is him that does all the design, I just set the peramiters. He's the only one that could pull this off.

-AP

 

[Augustus]

I dont hang with anybody, I will shoot projos made by anyone. As stated before I am looking for the best ELR bullet on the planet regardless of who makes them. Please dont attempt to belittle me because I have fired Noels bullets and posted results. Did I misundestand your post when you stated the 420 would stabilize out of an 8.5 twist at 3400 fps? I could go back and look it up but Im in a hurry and my puter is slower than moolasses in January.

I had a buddy that had a little Buckskin mule that was meaner than a snake. He would bite, paw, kick or buck your *** off everytime he got the chance. When I heard he had sold him I was appalled. I asked if he had told the new owner about all the nasty tricks that was about to befall him. My friend said," Naw I figgered that mule would show him more in a couple of hrs than I could tell him in a week". Prototypes are very similar in this respect, their qualities will bubble to the surface fairly quickly once actual testing begins. In the case of your 420 solids I sincerely hope they perform as you expect them to. If they are stable and have the BC you posted they will be awesome.

 

[Extremist458]

The bullets will stabilize between 8-9 twist, with the sweet spot being 8.5. They do not require 3,400fps to stabilize, but they are good up to that speed. If someone is able to go faster, we will have to change the design slightly, but we have not been asked to do so. The company that requested the bullet is a private firm and asked to be left out of this.
No attempt to belittle, just an atonement to your sarcasm and pessimism. Shoot what you like. Wonderful analogy, thank you. Have a great day, and God bless!

 

[kellyzier]

As stated in another thread I have recieved my rifle from Lawtons. It is a 30 in 8 twist on an 8000 action in a Manners stock bedded by Lawton. Noel Carlson presented me with samples of prototypes of his banded solid 375 bullets. He sent me samples of two different configurations. The first is a copper 431 gr. and the other is a brass 417 gr of identical demensions. The copper by far is the most interesting of the two. I started out with 130 gr of US869. The holes were round and there was no excessive pressure. I continued to step it up and attained 2965 fps with 150 gr of US 869. At this point the bolt became a little sticky and there were slight ejector marks on the case. The cases from Jamison are first class, I only used 3 cases for the tests and have 32 loadings on each case. There have been no split necks and the pockets are still good. I encountered stability issues at the higher velocities and Noel is tweaking the design to correct this. At lower velocities accuracy is very good, 100 yd 3 shot groups were .3 to .4 moa. The most outstanding display of accuracy was a 1/4 min. three shot group at 600 yds. At 1020 yds a half min. was attained. I was having more ES than desired on velocity at the lower velocity end of the spectrum which caused vertical stringing at distance. This was caused by the 125 gr of BMG which left a huge amount of the case unfilled. The load that produced 2900 fps was 145.5 gr of US 869. This load produced ES in the single digits and showed no signs of excessive pressure. This bullet could probably be driven very close to 3100 fps from the 408 improved versions. Think of this, you have a 431 gr projectile traveling at 3100 fps with a BC ------ OK here goes----- around 1.2 +. Fowling is a non- issue. Cleaning this rifle takes less effort than any of my custom 308 barrels. I fired into a couple of different medians and the nose bends past 90 degrees. I shot one into a clay bank, when it was recovered it was a round circle with the center touching. Anyway we are on the verge of seeing something awesome, if Noel can make the tweaked version fly as well at 2900-3100 as the first ones did at slower velocities, long range shooting just got a boost.

Agustus,
Have you or anyone you know had any more success with Noel's longer bullets or anyone elses longer bullets for the 375 Chey Tac?

I haven't read any of your strings since your last posting here....

thanks
kz

 

[kellyzier]

Kelly,

Neither the ZA375/7.0-W, nor the 6.5, was designed for hunting. While they are both frangible, and probably "legal", they cannot be magazine fed, nor could they be expected to penetrate in a linear fashion. More likely, you would destroy a very large amount of meat sans a perfect shot.

The ZA375/6.0-W is suitable for taking game in my opinion, because it avoids both of those limitations.

The Sierra seems to be right at it's design limit in an 8" twist. If your objective is to maintain compatibility with a ZA, only one question remains; Will a ZA375/6.0-W stabilize in an 8" twist. We already know the answer to that... it will. The ZA 375/6.5-W may as well. We will know that prior to the Las Vegas test.

Best,
Noel

Noel,
Im building a 375 snipe tac with two different barrels...My first barrel will probably be a standard 1-11 twist for a wider range of hunting bullets.

However, I have a second barrel blank waiting in the shadows for my go-ahead on a twist. Im still confused a bit on where I should go with the twist and bullet combo for this second barrel. I would still like to hunt with it no matter which way I go. Would you still recommend that I go with a ZA375/6.0....or is there even something longer like the ZA6.5 that I can go with for hunting and long range shooting as well.

 

[kellyzier]

Dave,

I think your focus on projectile adaptability/flexibility, in a hunting rifle, pretty much reflects what I have been able to gather from the hunting community.

I took the cue by moving to the ~6 caliber PDT core projectile. It will be interesting to learn the extent to which increased specific gravity reduces the rpm requirement. I have a suspicion that the ZA375/6.0-W will return to the 11.5" twist specification of the Hooker... but with a considerably higher BC.

Las Vegas will be telling.

Noel, I just read an older string of yours here...If the ZA6.0 will shoot from an 11.5 or even an 11 twist like the hooker and others, this will work for my 11 twist. This would allow me much more flexibiltiy with my 2nd barrel for the longest solids. Some have suggested a gain twist from 9 to 5.5 for the longest ZA's. Do you have range data for this or is it still too early. I think Augustus was ordering this twist, but it would be nice if others have already paved the way and we could see that range data......

kz

 

[kellyzier]

Dave,

I think your focus on projectile adaptability/flexibility, in a hunting rifle, pretty much reflects what I have been able to gather from the hunting community.

I took the cue by moving to the ~6 caliber PDT core projectile. It will be interesting to learn the extent to which increased specific gravity reduces the rpm requirement. I have a suspicion that the ZA375/6.0-W will return to the 11.5" twist specification of the Hooker... but with a considerably higher BC.

Las Vegas will be telling.

Noel,
Just one more question? Will the ZA6.5 shoot in a standard twist barrel without having to go to a gain twist barrel. If so what is the least twist we can get away with??? Also, do we have load info and range info on what this has done?? Im hoping that in the last few months others have played around with the 6.5 so the rest of us can save some time and money......Also, any idea of the BC for the ZA6.5

kz

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

I am close to making the final decision upon a copper alloy that will be used in the production projectiles. The procedure for determining this will also tell us if the PDT-cored ZA/6.0 stabilizes in an 11.5" twist, but it will almost certainly stabilize from a 10" twist.

The twist-rate information that you are looking for on the ZA6.5, and 7.0 caliber, will be posted soon.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Master Diver]

Fact is right now the best twist for magazine compatable bullets is 1:10.
It will be enough for ZA 6.0 and GSC 355 and all the other bullets that are older.

Cheers,

Master Diver

 

[kellyzier]

Kelly,

I am close to making the final decision upon a copper alloy that will be used in the production projectiles. The procedure for determining this will also tell us if the PDT-cored ZA/6.0 stabilizes in an 11.5" twist, but it will almost certainly stabilize from a 10" twist.

The twist-rate information that you are looking for on the ZA6.5, and 7.0 caliber, will be posted soon.

Thanks for your patience.

Thanks Noel, Im cutting one of my barrels to 1-10 twist so I can be sure that your ZA6.0's will shoot in it. It's a good compromise and it will allow me to shoot others as well. Do you have any guess to what the BC will look like for the ZA/6.0 ?????

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

"Do you have any guess to what the BC will look like for the ZA/6.0 ?????"...

I have cultivated the habit of avoiding speculation on BC values due to the true uncertainty which calculations entail, and all of the sillyness that shows up on threads advertising magic bullets.

It is easy enough to produce valid relative data in comparing other manufacturers, and this will be published soon for both 375's, and 338's.

Solid field measured BC values will be contracted out, to reassure objectivity, once a projectile is released for public sale.

I can tell you that the nose configurations on all ZA's are highly faithful Von Karman profiles, not simple radii, and that the tail geometry has been proven to enhance stability, at all velocities, while maintaining low drag. I am particularly interested to document the effect which this has upon transsonic flight.

 

[kellyzier]

Kelly,

I am close to making the final decision upon a copper alloy that will be used in the production projectiles. The procedure for determining this will also tell us if the PDT-cored ZA/6.0 stabilizes in an 11.5" twist, but it will almost certainly stabilize from a 10" twist.

The twist-rate information that you are looking for on the ZA6.5, and 7.0 caliber, will be posted soon.

Thanks for your patience.

Noel, Im should be getting my 1-10 twist barrel for my 375 soon. I would like to try some of the ZA 6.0's..When can I get my hands on some of them?

kz

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

I am giving manufacture priority to the PDT-cored projectiles. They will appear in the following order; 338 cal, 30 cal, 7mm, and 375 cal. My reasoning is that magazine compatible projectiles which stabilize from standard twists, and expand reliably upon soft targets, will have the greatest distribution.

Once the alloy issue is settled (within the next two weeks), I will set up for production for the ZA338/6.0-W, for which I am already taking orders. There are long existing orders for the ZA338/6.0-M (delayed up to two weeks ago by BATF licensure) that will be upgraded to 300 grain PDT projectiles.

I am not certain how rapidly they will be available due to the complex tooling required for tungsten weighing, compression, and quality control. The 338s will be rolling off soon however.