375-408

[Fiftydriver]

I have seen that in solids in several calibers as well. Personally I believe that with these larger chamberings as the barrel heats you see minute bore dimensional changes. With smaller chamberings with much smaller powder charges you do not see quite as much variation but when your putting a bullet of this weight, length and with this huge powder capacity, the variation shows up much more dramatically down range.

Give me a good, well made conventional lead core bullet any day of the week, even if that means I have to give up a tenth or so in BC.

I would also opt for the 338 version, weither its a standard 338 Chey Tac, 338 Snipertac, 338 Big Baer or 338 Allen Magnum, they are all great in a good rifle and all extremely potent for long range shooting and as Joel correctly states, your not locked into one specific bullet, very bad idea.

Many that get into rifles like this have a hard time understanding how a rifle that costs this much MAY not shot every bullet made into 1/4 moa groups at 1500 yards!!! Fact is, these are still rifles and they still have preferences for what bullets they prefer. Give yourself the most good options possible and you will have the best odds getting the best results possible out of your investment.

There are many good options in 338, you give up a bit of barrel life but you drop off alot of recoil as well. If you look at the cost of replacing a barrel on a rifle, its cost is a relatively small % of the total cost of the rifle. Often times its not much more if any more then say a Rem 700 factory rifle to replace a barrel on one of these rifles. So for the price of a BDL down the road several years, you have basically a brand new rifle.

 

[Rocky Mountain]

I have seen that in solids in several calibers as well. Personally I believe that with these larger chamberings as the barrel heats you see minute bore dimensional changes. With smaller chamberings with much smaller powder charges you do not see quite as much variation but when your putting a bullet of this weight, length and with this huge powder capacity, the variation shows up much more dramatically down range.

Give me a good, well made conventional lead core bullet any day of the week, even if that means I have to give up a tenth or so in BC.

I would also opt for the 338 version, weither its a standard 338 Chey Tac, 338 Snipertac, 338 Big Baer or 338 Allen Magnum, they are all great in a good rifle and all extremely potent for long range shooting and as Joel correctly states, your not locked into one specific bullet, very bad idea.

Many that get into rifles like this have a hard time understanding how a rifle that costs this much MAY not shot every bullet made into 1/4 moa groups at 1500 yards!!! Fact is, these are still rifles and they still have preferences for what bullets they prefer. Give yourself the most good options possible and you will have the best odds getting the best results possible out of your investment.

There are many good options in 338, you give up a bit of barrel life but you drop off alot of recoil as well. If you look at the cost of replacing a barrel on a rifle, its cost is a relatively small % of the total cost of the rifle. Often times its not much more if any more then say a Rem 700 factory rifle to replace a barrel on one of these rifles. So for the price of a BDL down the road several years, you have basically a brand new rifle.

The big problem is that barrel life of 400-500 rounds of good accuracy is very short then take of 100-125 rounds for load work up (load testing for drop charts as well) and it can be a bit of a problem.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I have had several 338 AMs with barrel lifes in the 800-1000 range easily. The key is to NEVER overheat the barrels and keep them clean and also not to try to get every last FPS you can out of them.

In reality, I can develope a GOOD load in 10 rounds or less. It would amaze and probably disgust most SERIOUS long range shooters of my actual load development which I have posted here on LRH from time to time over the years. Realize I am not looking for the ABSOLUTE best load that the rifle will shoot, this search is best left to rifles like a 223 or 308 or even 300 Win Mag. These are weapon systems that do have limited barrel life and in all honesty, a 1/4 moa load will do very little more then a 1/2 moa load even out to a mile.

The biggest limiting factor will be the shooters ability to pilot the rifle and to judge external conditions. This will effect point of impact far more then most load to load variations in a quality rifle.

Again, if your only getting 400-500 rounds of barrel life out of any 338-408 CT your either shooting a barrel that is far to soft or your allowing the barrel to heat up to much and you keep shooting. Remember that these rifles are not designed for volume shooting of any kind, thats what lesser rounds are for.

And, if it takes you 125 rounds to find a GOOD working load in this class of rifle and in a quality built rifle, something is not quite right. Now keep in mind I am not looking for a load that will produce the next world record group. I am looking for a load that will consistantly put that bullet into the vitals of a big game animal at the range I decide to shoot at. AS I have mentioned many times, I do not build Bench Rest rifles, I build Long Range Precision big game rifles, there is a big difference, mainly in what they are chambered in.

Just want to point out that these rounds have a much longer barrel life then your stating if cared for and used properly. Not trying to ruffle any feathers or throw any flames of any kind but of the 62 XHS rifles I have shipped over the years, I have yet to replace a barrel and some of these are getting to be 7-8 years old and they are still killing big game and being shot at very long ranges with excellent results.

 

[Joel Russo]

I couldn't have said it better Kirby.

If you want to spend hours and dollars looking for that extra .100" smaller group, then build a PPC. Conditions at extended ranges will kill those minor details every time. These are purpose built rifles, that I commonly refer to as "situational rifles".

I've been seeing the same 800-1,000 rounds for acceptable accuracy. Once you play with this combination for a while, it doesn't take much to figure out what they like.
It took me 6 rounds to develop the load for my green rifle named Eleanor that usually hangs in the 12" group size at the mile, and has been down to 3.8".

 

[dakor]

Thanks for the information. There is a couple of reason I am looking at a 375-408. The 375 will have better barrel life over the 338-408 which is important to me I shoot a lot. The frontal area of a 375 is bigger than a 338. I suspect in the next 3 to 5 years you are going to see a lot more 375 VLD bullets from different Manufactures since Sierra came back out with the 350 SMK. You can buy 375-408 brass already to go without necking down or fire forming. I am shooting the 350 SMK's out of a 375 H&H out to 1000 yards with good results on targets but no game taken yet with it. I can only imagine what that bullet will do 700 to 800 fps faster it should be very impressive for sure.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Thanks for the information. There is a couple of reason I am looking at a 375-408. The 375 will have better barrel life over the 338-408 which is important to me I shoot a lot. The frontal area of a 375 is bigger than a 338. I suspect in the next 3 to 5 years you are going to see a lot more 375 VLD bullets from different Manufactures since Sierra came back out with the 350 SMK. You can buy 375-408 brass already to go without necking down or fire forming. I am shooting the 350 SMK's out of a 375 H&H out to 1000 yards with good results on targets but no game taken yet with it. I can only imagine what that bullet will do 700 to 800 fps faster it should be very impressive for sure.

If your looking to shoot either of these two ALOT, I urge you consider stepping down to the Lapua based chamberings or a 375 RUM if you want an easy to load for 375. While the 375 Chey Tac has a better barrel life then the 338, its still not a high volume shooting design. If you want a high volume shooter, get down to or under that 100 grain powder capacity in a bore of at least 338 caliber.

Just a recommendation.

 

[dakor]

The action I would be using is setup for the Lapua boltface otherwise I would just make a 375 RUM and be done with it. The action can handle the 408 case which I would just have to open the boltface up some. So when I priced out a 378 Weatherby, 375-338 Lapua, 375-408, 375-416, 375 Saturn and so on the 375-408 is the same or cheaper than some of them. I have even thought of just going with a 338 Lapua but I already have a 338 Rum. The guy that will build the rifle is pushing for the 375 Saturn but I have heard good and bad about Lazzeroni brass and for the cost of it a 375-408 would be cheaper and have more bang for the buck. I am just trying to decide the best route and that is going to be easier said than done with all the options out there.

 

[Fiftydriver]

What receiver are you using?

I have personally built RUM class chamberings using Lapua receivers. Some work as if they were made for the RUM, others had a few issues.

I have limited experience with Lazzeroni brass, mainly with the Tomahawk and Warbird. The Tomahawk brass was worthless. Early Warbird brass was very weak. Newer Warbird brass is pretty good strength wise but in MY opinion its very expensive for what you get. Especially when you consider that a round based on the 338 Lapua case and fireformed will get you exactly the same performance. I know that because my 300 AX will easily match the Warbird in every catagory and do so with a tick less powder and brass that is much less costly and also much stronger.

Back to the receiver. You say you can just open the bolt face up for the 408. I would make sure the manufacturer recommends this. I know I had a BAT model M 1.53"x8.5" single shot in shop a couple years ago. Now this receiver is the receiver I use mainly for building my 338 and 375 Allen Magnum which are based on the 408 CT. This receiver however had a lapua bolt face. The owner wanted a 338 AM so I figured no problem, just open up the bolt face.

Just by chance I had to order some more BAT receivers so I was talking with Bruce and he said DO NOT DO IT....... He said the Lapua and the Chey Tac bolt faced receivers have more differences then just bolt face and that the Lapua receiver WOULD not work well with the CT class chamberings. He never said there would be a strength issue but it sounded more like a function issue, I assume with extraction and ejection.

Anyway, just make sure that the manufacturer does not have a problem stepping up their receiver from Lapua to CT bolt face.

 

[dakor]

The action is a MODEL 1999 MONTANA PROFESSIONAL HUNTER ACTION.

 

[Joel Russo]

The action is a MODEL 1999 MONTANA PROFESSIONAL HUNTER ACTION.

I have that same action in the shop at the moment.... currently in a .416-.338 Lapua config.

Do yourself a favor, if you want to build on the .408 case, buy either the TAC 408 or the BAT!

 

[dakor]

Joel are you having an issue with that action? If I wanted to go with a lapua style case would this action be ok for that?

 

[Fiftydriver]

That action may be fine for use with the 505 Gibbs loaded to 45,000 psi but DO NOT use that receiver for a 408 CT class chambering that is loaded to 65,000 psi, it will go bad in a hurry.

Again, DO NOT USE THAT FOR A CHEY TAC CLASS WEAPON.

 

[Joel Russo]

Joel are you having an issue with that action? If I wanted to go with a lapua style case would this action be ok for that?

No issues with the action for the Lapua case, but like Kirby states... not for the .408 case.
Personally, if I were building on the lapua case, it would not be on the Montana action. But, hey, that's just my opinion...

 

[dakor]

Thank you.