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338 lapua v. 338-378 weatherby
- Thread starter ccsykes
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RDM416
Well-Known Member
Laupua Guy,
I was not trying to come off as a "know it all". On this site we are interested in trying to help each other become the best "long range hunters" and shooters. A part of that is understanding the technical nature of long range rifles, ballistics and shooting. During the years I have been posting on this site I have made statements several times that were just wrong...... sometimes just a mistake on my part (I intended to say 3350 and said 3450 or some such thing), other times I simply did not understand due to lack of knowledge or experience. Every time, someone with more experience than I have corrected me, or we at least had a civil conversation until we agreed to disagree.
Now as far as your reply post to me:
You can believe whatever you want about the ballistic performance of the Lapua vs the 338/378. What you believe does not make it so, but you can believe it anyway and I am not going to argue with you. You can believe all you want that a Lapua will out perform a 338/378, that does not make it true. (Hint: you can't compare different bullets or weights) Just because the military has some long range "kills" with the Lapua is meaningless. The various sporter calibers and wildcats we are shooting are not used by the military and we are hunting "game" not people. I dare to say that there are many on this site who have "confirmed kills" on critters with a variety of rifles and calibers that far exceeds any "confirmed kills" with a Lapua on the battlefield. By the way, if I am not mistaken, the longest military confirmed kill is not with a Lapua anyway......... it was at 1.5 miles with a 50 BMG. But again, believe what you want.
The part of your post I simply will not let slide by is where you called me a "liar". Yes, I do own 2 338 Khan's, a search of the archives of this site will turn up evidence of that fact. Second as far saying I am lying about my shooting skill or the accuracy of my rifles....... Just check in with "Bravo 4" on this site. He is a military sniper / trainer and shoots with me. We were just out shooting a couple of weeks ago at 1000 yards, he will confirm the fact that I and my rifles are capable of shooting just as I said on my previous post........ and he can do the same and even better with his 338 Edge.
I re-read my original post and maybe I did come across a little strong. I was not trying to make a personal attack and I am sorry if you took it that way. I learned many years ago to never discuss rifle performance and ballistics at deer camp. Every one in camp thinks their chosen rifle / caliber is the "best" out there for hunting deer and trying to discuss actual ballistics simply starts arguments. That is the difference with this site and "deer camp". On this site we will compare and discuss the ballistic performance of different rounds, the terminal performance, accuracy and many other factors of the long range rifles we shoot. We all try to stay away from the "Ford vs Chevy" mentality of "my rifle is better than yours". Many of us will post reports of our shooting sessions and we are not bragging, we are simply sharing our successes with others on the site, we also frequently post of the times when we had bad days or made stupid screw ups...... it's part of the learning process. Although I have been playing the long range game for 10 years or so now, I am still a novice compared to many of the guys on this site, and have a lot to learn. You can learn a lot from them as well......... if you are willing to listen. Good luck, and good day.
I was not trying to come off as a "know it all". On this site we are interested in trying to help each other become the best "long range hunters" and shooters. A part of that is understanding the technical nature of long range rifles, ballistics and shooting. During the years I have been posting on this site I have made statements several times that were just wrong...... sometimes just a mistake on my part (I intended to say 3350 and said 3450 or some such thing), other times I simply did not understand due to lack of knowledge or experience. Every time, someone with more experience than I have corrected me, or we at least had a civil conversation until we agreed to disagree.
Now as far as your reply post to me:
You can believe whatever you want about the ballistic performance of the Lapua vs the 338/378. What you believe does not make it so, but you can believe it anyway and I am not going to argue with you. You can believe all you want that a Lapua will out perform a 338/378, that does not make it true. (Hint: you can't compare different bullets or weights) Just because the military has some long range "kills" with the Lapua is meaningless. The various sporter calibers and wildcats we are shooting are not used by the military and we are hunting "game" not people. I dare to say that there are many on this site who have "confirmed kills" on critters with a variety of rifles and calibers that far exceeds any "confirmed kills" with a Lapua on the battlefield. By the way, if I am not mistaken, the longest military confirmed kill is not with a Lapua anyway......... it was at 1.5 miles with a 50 BMG. But again, believe what you want.
The part of your post I simply will not let slide by is where you called me a "liar". Yes, I do own 2 338 Khan's, a search of the archives of this site will turn up evidence of that fact. Second as far saying I am lying about my shooting skill or the accuracy of my rifles....... Just check in with "Bravo 4" on this site. He is a military sniper / trainer and shoots with me. We were just out shooting a couple of weeks ago at 1000 yards, he will confirm the fact that I and my rifles are capable of shooting just as I said on my previous post........ and he can do the same and even better with his 338 Edge.
I re-read my original post and maybe I did come across a little strong. I was not trying to make a personal attack and I am sorry if you took it that way. I learned many years ago to never discuss rifle performance and ballistics at deer camp. Every one in camp thinks their chosen rifle / caliber is the "best" out there for hunting deer and trying to discuss actual ballistics simply starts arguments. That is the difference with this site and "deer camp". On this site we will compare and discuss the ballistic performance of different rounds, the terminal performance, accuracy and many other factors of the long range rifles we shoot. We all try to stay away from the "Ford vs Chevy" mentality of "my rifle is better than yours". Many of us will post reports of our shooting sessions and we are not bragging, we are simply sharing our successes with others on the site, we also frequently post of the times when we had bad days or made stupid screw ups...... it's part of the learning process. Although I have been playing the long range game for 10 years or so now, I am still a novice compared to many of the guys on this site, and have a lot to learn. You can learn a lot from them as well......... if you are willing to listen. Good luck, and good day.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
That's and understatement!!! WOW!!
The TAC-50 kill you speak of was indeed the longest range kill in combat, until a shot by a 338 Lapua beat it earlier this year. Here is a few links: New longest kill shot by sniper
Hotshot sniper in one-and-a-half mile double kill - Times Online
The alarm went of on you the most when you referred to a Khan, instead of a Kahn. Its the 338 Kubla Kahn, not 338 Kubla Khan which is nothing more than an improved 338-378, which yes will shoot flatter than the Lapua, but not so with the Lapua Improved. It seemed odd that a guy saying he owned one couldn't spell it right. Then again, we all make mistakes.
On paper, you may be right about the Weatherby. In the field, I have found way different situations. Maybe it has to do with the quality of Lapua components being much better than Weatherby's (a FACT), maybe familiarity with my rifles (only shot the Weatherby a few times, and never in a hunt). Whatever the case, I prefer the Lapua as far a long range accuracy goes. Sure the Weatherby is faster, but it isn't more accurate, and it isn't just me that will say that. I do know that accuracy concerns and feeding problems with belted magnums and wildcats is not a new thing. It was a concern with the US Military had with the weatherby when they had RAI design the the 338-416 before Lapua redesigned the cartridge with the help of Cooper from Accuracy International. And I'm sorry, that is a weighing factor. Hitting a human at range is much more difficult than hitting an elk at range.
On that note though I will acknowlege you could argue the Weatherby is the better hunting gun, because in hunting you don't have to be as accurate. It still doesn't make it more accurate
Bottom line, the LM is more accurate and stable at long range. I would love for you to prove different, and not just state ballistics comparisons at muzzle point or 400 yards, which I'm sorry, isn't long range hunting.
Hotshot sniper in one-and-a-half mile double kill - Times Online
The alarm went of on you the most when you referred to a Khan, instead of a Kahn. Its the 338 Kubla Kahn, not 338 Kubla Khan which is nothing more than an improved 338-378, which yes will shoot flatter than the Lapua, but not so with the Lapua Improved. It seemed odd that a guy saying he owned one couldn't spell it right. Then again, we all make mistakes.
On paper, you may be right about the Weatherby. In the field, I have found way different situations. Maybe it has to do with the quality of Lapua components being much better than Weatherby's (a FACT), maybe familiarity with my rifles (only shot the Weatherby a few times, and never in a hunt). Whatever the case, I prefer the Lapua as far a long range accuracy goes. Sure the Weatherby is faster, but it isn't more accurate, and it isn't just me that will say that. I do know that accuracy concerns and feeding problems with belted magnums and wildcats is not a new thing. It was a concern with the US Military had with the weatherby when they had RAI design the the 338-416 before Lapua redesigned the cartridge with the help of Cooper from Accuracy International. And I'm sorry, that is a weighing factor. Hitting a human at range is much more difficult than hitting an elk at range.
On that note though I will acknowlege you could argue the Weatherby is the better hunting gun, because in hunting you don't have to be as accurate. It still doesn't make it more accurate
Bottom line, the LM is more accurate and stable at long range. I would love for you to prove different, and not just state ballistics comparisons at muzzle point or 400 yards, which I'm sorry, isn't long range hunting.
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timeless61
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
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- 274
this thread is funny. external ballistics are external ballistics. it does not matter what cartridge is used, velocity is velocity. if a 300 smk is fired at 3000 fps as opposed to 2700, the 3000 will be better in every regard at any range. it is really not a hard concept to understand.
as far as accuracy, that is the gun... but based on opinions, a poorly made lapua will outshoot the best made 338-378, which I would hope most of us know not to be true.
as far as accuracy, that is the gun... but based on opinions, a poorly made lapua will outshoot the best made 338-378, which I would hope most of us know not to be true.
It isn't just the gun. It is also the brass, the types of powders available for use, the projectile, the glass. As far as powders and brass, the Weatherby is found severely lacking. And there really isn't a poorly made Lapua on the market right now. And there isn't really that many Weatherby's made to the quality of the Lapua's (save maybe the Accumarks compared to the early Armalite LM's) so your point is moot.
You are oversimplifying an argument here. Speed and energy that can't be harnessed properly at range is useless. Ask anyone who has owned both rifles which one shoots more accurately.
timeless61
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2008
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- 274
compare apples to apples,
take for example a 338 lapua built by say Kirby Allen, and a 338-378 built by him or any othe reputable smith with the same glass, with the same 300 smk, they are going to be just as accurate, and the lapua brass will probably last longer, except the 338-378 will be faster and in turn have less drop and wind will effect it less at the same range as the lapua.
it is very simple.
also, I do not think too many people that shoot extreme range are shooting a stock off the shelf gun in any of the big 338's so that point is pretty moot. same with buying factory ammunition for either to be used at extreme ranges.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
I am going with what Kirby said six years ago. We have both built and shot many big 338's. What he said looks about right to me. No comparison on velocity between the 338-378 wby and the 338 Lapua. Wby tops it by 200+ fps., not close. Both are extremely accurate. I own both and can take about anything at any reasonable distance with either.
As far as comparing longest sniper kills that is easy. The lapua is the issue round so all records will be with it, the 50 cal or the 308 which are also issue. So can't compare them that way. By the way the 50 cal wins longest confirmed and not the Lapua. The longest kill is going to be with whatever the guy is issued.
As far as comparing longest sniper kills that is easy. The lapua is the issue round so all records will be with it, the 50 cal or the 308 which are also issue. So can't compare them that way. By the way the 50 cal wins longest confirmed and not the Lapua. The longest kill is going to be with whatever the guy is issued.
I agree with your post comparing the 2 rounds. Actually the 338 Lapua holds the record for longest kill. According to reports a British sniper broke the Canadians record with the 50 by a 100 yards or so
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wvcountryboy
Well-Known Member
I shoot a 338 ultramag. 30"lilja 12 twist. My dad shoots a 338-378. 30" hart 10 twist. My brother in law just finished a 338 lapua improved. 32"lilja 10 twist. I am a fan of small bullets and high velocity. I like the bullet to come apart to see how big of a hole i can make. My ultra mag is throated for 180 grain bullets. Nosler accubond is the only 180 grains made. They have too thick of a jacket.
Looking for a thinner jacketed bullet I went to 250 match kings. They come apart extremely well on deer. I shot a 5 shot group last weekend at 100 yards. 90 grains 7828 is giving me 3165 fps in 50*f and i shot a .193 group. It wasnt legitimate because i had a flier so it took me 6 shots but there are 5 shots in .193.
My dad and brother in law both shoot the 300 match kings. My dad is getting 2900 and my brother in law is getting 28 something. 2860 if i remember right. Neither one is showing pressure. All I can say is, my dad worked his load up very quick, my brother in law had to play for about a day to get a load. It seems to me it is easier to get that 378 case to shoot. My dad also has a 30-378 which he shoots 125s in at 4050 and it shoots really good.
I had to play with my ultra mag to get a load that shot good. My brother in law had to play to get his lapua improved to shoot. Not the 338-378. Maybe he just got lucky on the first load but it seems to me they are easier to get accurate loads for.
Looking for a thinner jacketed bullet I went to 250 match kings. They come apart extremely well on deer. I shot a 5 shot group last weekend at 100 yards. 90 grains 7828 is giving me 3165 fps in 50*f and i shot a .193 group. It wasnt legitimate because i had a flier so it took me 6 shots but there are 5 shots in .193.
My dad and brother in law both shoot the 300 match kings. My dad is getting 2900 and my brother in law is getting 28 something. 2860 if i remember right. Neither one is showing pressure. All I can say is, my dad worked his load up very quick, my brother in law had to play for about a day to get a load. It seems to me it is easier to get that 378 case to shoot. My dad also has a 30-378 which he shoots 125s in at 4050 and it shoots really good.
I had to play with my ultra mag to get a load that shot good. My brother in law had to play to get his lapua improved to shoot. Not the 338-378. Maybe he just got lucky on the first load but it seems to me they are easier to get accurate loads for.
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Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
JWP, thanks for correcting me. I do not keep up with sniper records. I just happened to see a tv show yesterday about sniper rifles and they said the longest was a 50 cal at +-2000 yards. Show could have been taped several years ago. I don't know. Basically I was just trying to show the 338-378 and lapua are both very capable rounds.
snake
Well-Known Member
I think I saw the same show. Rob Furlong was the Canadian sniper who had the kill over 2200yrds back in 2002 witjh the .50. If someone made a longer kill with the Lapua I'd like to read about it. Thats impressive,especially in a combat situation.
ubettcha13
Well-Known Member
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- Aug 22, 2010
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The Brit had perfect conditions made 2, 1 shot hits at 2706.6 yds
Brit Sniper Makes Double-Kill at 1.54 miles with .338 Lapua Mag « Daily Bulletin
AlaskaIsGodsCountry
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