338 lapua v. 338-378 weatherby

[Fiftydriver]

I assure you the 300 gr Sierra Matchking(SMK) will not explode on elk and moose size targets. They actually perform quite well on this size targets from all the reports I have seen and heard about.

I personally have found H-50BMG to be the best powder I have tested in my 338 Kahn. I do not load it very hot, in fact pretty mildly at around 3050 fps but it shoots very well.

I have some H-870 but not enough to really develop a load for this round. Sure as heck as soon as I played with this powder I would find that magical load about the time I ran out of powder.

Out of my V-Block rifles, the 338 Kahn will average less then 1.5" groups at 500 yards for three shot groups. I have shot several groups in the.8" to .9" range with the 300 gr Wildcat Bullets ULDs at this range.

A properly set up 338-378 will do the same thing of the ammo is up to it.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[ccsykes]

guys, thanks for the overwhelming amount of feed back. I believe that I have decided to get sort of a two in one deal. After some of the comments about H S Precision, I have decided to go with a fast little 257 wby round in this rifle and my new question is what type of barrel I should use to rechamber my 300 wby into a 338 caliber. Does anybody know if I can use the same action as in the mark v action chambered in 300 wby to make a 338 ultra mag or should I stick with the 340 wby. I have a buddy gunsmith who can do this and put a brake on it for a reasonable price.

 

[alremkin]

Hm, ok I'd heard of the 300 gr Sierra at Lilja's site, but dismissed them thinking they were hollow points and would explode at close range, under 500 yards. Looking at his data now which says I could get 3100 fps with the 250 gr and 2900 + with the 300 gr, makes me think I'll have to try the 300 gr too. They wern't in existence the last time I did load developement for my 338 Win Mag.

If your rifles can produce that kind of accuracy they're certainly worth that money. With a little luck maybe someday I'll have one of your rifles. Is the Kahn made only in single shots? I wonder because the recoil of these rifles might unseat the bullets in the magazine and looking at the 378 case the only way I can see to improve it would be to shorten the case neck. It would be interesting to hear how you improved the 378 case. For now my interest is for a long range hunting rifle.

I can see my spare time and money will be tied up likely for the next couple of years getting my Accumark up to speed and fully equiped. Do you have any advice as to what primers, powder and brass to use with either the 250 or 300 grainers? I intend to start with Federal primers and get some Weaterhby/Norma brass and try my existing supply of H-870.

 

[Fiftydriver]

In your 338 Win, you will probably only get around 2500 fps with the 300 gr Smk. This is fine for long range shooting but long range hunting teh larger rounds are generally used. This is not to say that it will not perform because it will.

This pic shows the 338-378 Wby parent cases on the left and the 338 Kahn cases on the rifle. The shoulder is moved slightly forward and the shoulder is blown out to a 35 degree conventional shoulder. Case capacity is increased by around 8 grains.

This pic shows a 338 RUM flanked by two 338 Kahns.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[alremkin]

Ah ok, a picture is worth a thousand words. I notice you neck turn your cases. Do you use a Forester neck turner? Last time I was shooting I bought bought a Forester neck turning machine, but quit shooting before I used it.

Are your rifles single shots? I understand that the single shot is prefered for target shooting becasue the action is stiffer and more solid.

I see the case necks were shortened by pushing forward the case shoulder on your Kahn. Originally I thought about having a gun made based on the 338 A-Square Excalibur, but those cases are extremely exspensive about 3x the cost of Weatherby 338/378 cases. Is this the main reason no one uses the 338 Excalibur? Your Kahn seems to approximate it's case capacity. By the way I was mildly shocked at the cost of 338/378 brass here in Canada $62/box of 20, the cheapest I've been able to find here. I tried Midlway in the states, but despite NFTA they don't ship to Canada. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Their cost would have been about $40/box of 20 in Canadian$. The a mail order house didn't have 300gr. SMKs in stock so I back ordered 200 with the 120 brass.

Can you recommend Scope Bases and Rings for a Weatherby 338/378? Since my main use for the rifle will be hunting Elk and Moose in Grizzly country I'm looking for a variable scope in the range of 2x7 to 3x10 in Luepold, Swavorski, or Zeiss. Of course I'm interested to hear any recommendations you have with regard to scope as well. Thank you for your time I think this thread of conversation will be of interest to others in the future.

 

[jhendri2]

I already have a Lapua and just ordered a 338-378. I don't think the difference is that great, but I'll let you know real world numbers when the new rifle comes in.

Jim

 

[Fiftydriver]

The Excaliber is a great design but I think the legal trouble A-Square had kind of scared off alot of people from using their stuff that could not be formed from other brass. Also cost is also an issue.

My Heavy V-Block rifles are all single shot. I am not concerned with stiffness really as this is not an issue with a Barrel Bedding V-Block rifle where the action is totally floated and converted to a non stressed componant of the rifle except of course the first 1.5" that has to hold the bolt in place.

Mounting a scope on a heavy recoiling rifle, especially one with high recoil velocitied can be hard on a mounting system.

For a lower price set up that is still brute strong, I find a Burris Double Dovetail system using the Burris Signature rings is very hard to beat for strength and scope holding power. Plus they are very easy on the scope body.

YOu do give up some versitility with the double dove tail which does not make it the best for extreme range shooting but for a big game rifle used out to 500 to 600 yards they are a very good system.

Other then that, any of the heavy tactical rings from Leupold, Badger and many others work well.

My 338 Kahn has a Standard Burris one piece base with Sig rings but my 338 Kahn also weights 26 lbs. In a more conventional weight rifle, the standard base is subject to slipping the rear scope ring. Something to consider. I have only seen this once with Burris Sig rings and that was due to a broken clamping bolt but with other rings this is a common problem.

Always remember it is easier to keep a light weight scope solidly in place then a heavy scope. Physicals is a bugger in this aspect.

GOod Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[alremkin]

Ok the Burris double dovetail bases and Sig rings it is and they are about 1/2 the price of the Weatherby Picattinney bases and rings.

About a scope, I got a 1.5x5 Leupold that was damaged and fogs up I'm going to send it to Leupold and see if they will give me credit for a new scope, a 2.5x8 if they will, I'll use that scope. Otherwise I'm considering a 1.8x10 US Optics if I have to buy a new one. Do both of these seem reasonable choices for a hunting rifle where I need some low end up close abilty? I think they are both fairly light.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Those two scopes should work fine, 8x and 10x are plenty for making shots on big game out to 500 yards in most cases. Sometimes farther depending on the reticle dimsneions and size of game.

I know the Leu's are light, have not played with a US 1.8-10x.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Lapua guy]

As you can tell by my screen name, I have to side with the 338 Lapua on this one. All are great rounds, but the Weatherby is the last one of the four (338 Lapua, 338 Edge, 338 RUM, and 338-378) that I would ever own. Muzzle velocity and energy are great, but at range, it simply doesn't perform lights out like the 338 Lapua Magnum. There is a reason why it holds the longest on record confirmed kill.

At 500 yards, the Lapua 300 grain bullet will drop around the same as the 250 grain Weatherby. The Lapua is flatter shooting by far. Velocity and energy mean nothing if accuracy isn't there, especially at range. Also, prices on Lapua are coming way down, and most very good BTHP rounds are around 40% less than the 338-378 Lapua. The other two rifles I talked about I would put ahead of the Weatherby for these reasons: 338 Edge seems to be the new deal, designed by a Lapua man that wanted to improve it. So far I haven't seen enough about it personally to go for it, but it may be my next 1000 yard gun if it does what it is supposed to do. The 338 RUM I would buy before the Weatherby due to price. You basically have 75% of of a Lapua Magnum for what used to be half the price. I said use to be, because I just purchased one of Rem. 700Ps for CHEAP, and the sucker with a spare Leupold Mk4 I had is shooting sub .378" groups at 200 yards right now. That is better than the TRG-42. Still, you can by a Rem Sendero for 500 bucks less, pay 20% less on rounds in a 338 RUM.

So, for you I would go for the Lapua, or I would go with the 338 RUM.

 

[RDM416]

I have been watching this thread with interest since I have been shooting 338/378s and 338 Khan's for about 2 decades. I was just watching the discussion until the post from Lapua Guy came along..........

Now, I don't intend to be a know it all, but unless I am missing something very crucial the following quote by Lapua Guy is simply not so.....

At 500 yards, the Lapua 300 grain bullet will drop around the same as the 250 grain Weatherby. The Lapua is flatter shooting by far.



It is a simple FACT that the 338/378 in a similar rifle with a similar barrel length will fire the same bullet at a significantly faster velocity. I don't care if that is a 300 grain, or 250 grain bullet. The laws of physics are simply the laws of physics, faster muzzle velocity equals less drop, with the same bullet.

I am not sure what you were getting at by comparing a 300 grain bullet out of the Lapua to a 250 out of a 338/378??? My Kahn will easily launch 250 SMKs at 3350, 3400 if I push it, and 300 SMKs at 3150. A 338 Lapua simply will not do that. The math is simple..... more velocity at the muzzle with the same bullet means flatter shooting..... period.

Don't get me wrong here, I have no problem the 338 Lapua, so I am not making a Ford vs Chevy argument here. I don't own a Lapua, but I will eventually, but I have a whole gun room full of 338s..... 338 win mag, 338 ultra mag, 338 Edge, (2) 338 Khan, and a 338 Allen Mag on order, so I have a little experience with 338s and am not hung up on the 338/378 or 338 Kahn as being the ultimate 338 round. They all have their place.

Back to the original discussion before I got distracted....... If you are going to spend $2500 plus on a rifle such as an HS Precision, save your pennies and put it off for another year and come up with another $1000, for $3500 or so you can have Fiftydriver (Kirby) build you a full custom rifle in the caliber of your choice......... you will not regret waiting for the extra grand. (I have a 338 RUM HS Precision, it is a nice rifle but it sits in my closet gathering dust while I shoot and hunt with my custom 338 Khan's and 338 Edge)

 

[RDM416]

One more thing for Lapua Guy that I forgot....... There is nothing about the Lapua that makes it inherently more accurate than a 338/378 or 338 Khan. Accuracy depends mainly on how well the individual rifle was built, the quality of the ammunition and the skill of the person behind the trigger.

I can take either of my 338 Khan's and fire a shot at 100 yards, dial up over 20 moa and ring my 1000 yard gong, then dial it back to zero and put the third round through the same hole as the first at 100 yards. 1/4 moa accuracy is 1/4 moa accuracy......... whatever the round.

 

[Lapua guy]

One more thing for Lapua Guy that I forgot....... There is nothing about the Lapua that makes it inherently more accurate than a 338/378 or 338 Khan. Accuracy depends mainly on how well the individual rifle was built, the quality of the ammunition and the skill of the person behind the trigger.

I can take either of my 338 Khan's and fire a shot at 100 yards, dial up over 20 moa and ring my 1000 yard gong, then dial it back to zero and put the third round through the same hole as the first at 100 yards. 1/4 moa accuracy is 1/4 moa accuracy......... whatever the round.

Sorry if I suspend belief on your 338 'Khan' or how people that really own one know Kahn. Sorry you wasted 2 grand more than you had too on a firearm, if you indeed own one. I even if you can fire as well as you say you can, so what, I can do the same thing you are saying with my 7mm Rem Mag, or my 6.5x284 norma. I won't suspend belief on yo being a know-it-all though. I stand by ALL my statements. The drop on a Lapua with 300 gr SMK is about 3 inches more than a 338-378 shooting a 250 gr SMK. You can look it up for yourself, the US Military and the shooting world have frequently documented results like that.

The Weatherby is faster, and it has more energy up to about 400 yards, but that means nothing when it comes to the inherent accuracy of a round past that range. The Weatherby bleeds its oomph much faster than the Lapua past that. That is a fact.

The fact is that yes, rifle build, glass, and shooter's skill matter, but so do the performance of the round. That is why I am not sold yet on a 338 Edge. It is the fastest and hottest of all the rifles we are talking about. I have yet to personally shoot one, nor have I talked to sources that have and are complete sold on it yet either. Then again, it isn't all that old of a cartridge.

Also, being a hand loader, Lapua brass can't be matched. Those belted magnums are crap for reloading. I own a 375 H and H, and I don't reload more than twice. I can usually get 6-8 before the brass is shot on the Lapua

At the end of the day, its what you know, what you are comfortable with when long range hunting. I am way more comfortable with my groups at range with my Lapua. I love the round. I can't say the same for the weatherby. Quite frankly I would purchase the 30-378 before the 338-378. Take it for what it is worth. I know expect to change your mind.

 

[B23]

This is one of those times when you really should just put the pipe down and step away from your mom's computer and I mean that with the utmost respect.