338 edge?

[436]

sniper2,
So what's being said here is; the .338 Remington Ultra Magnum cartridge, designed by Remington in 2000 an introduced by Remington Arms in 2002 is nothing more than a .338 Edge with a 30' inch barrel added to the action as introduced by S.C in 2001, correct?

So here's the defining question... Can you fire both cartridges in the same rifles safely?

I think; we can all agree that the .404 Jeffery cartridge as seen more then it far share of wildcatting on it since it's introduction in 1909'..., and I'm pretty sure the first unknown name soul to top it off with a .338 caliber bullet is lost to history at this stage.

Thanks...
436

 

[sniper2]

I believe the .338RUM is shorter is was initially thought it would be the same but when they introduced it the thing was shorter probably to protect some folks... I surely wouldn't interchange these cartridges...

 

[conn338rum]

The 338 RUM is .090" shorter than the 300 RUM case
I own both, bought a 300 RUM Last month
Took the 300 RUM out the last two times shooting
Can shoot one shot touching the other at 100 yds haven't been farther yet
Same for the 338 RUM
I think the 300 kicks more than the 338 RUM!!
300 RUM 90 grains H1000 200gn bullet
338 RUM 98 grains Retumbo 225 SST bullet
Still playing with loads going to try Retumbo with the 300 RUM

 

[436]

sniper2,
Ok'..., far enough. So who's wildcat'…., like the .338/300 RUM is the .338 Edge close to? Or is identical too? I would think performance wise there's ain't a dimes worth of deference in any of these cartridges with a 30" inch barrel; is that right?
However is there some secret "voodoo" in this cartridge, or any of the others, other then their names?
Perhaps you have the correct case dimensions for the .338 Edge, that and the dimension of the closest .338 wildcat to the Edge.
It seems there are few people on the site that could shed light on the conversation, and I'd kinda like to know what other options are people trying with a 30" inch barrel.
Again, thanks for your excellent information in this conversation.
436

ps; I am thinking very hard about the .338 Norma Mag, I understand a lot of LR shooters are having some very good luck with it. And it's picking up speed like crazy in the long range hunter camps.

 

[Shawn Carlock]

I don't want there to be any confusion about this. I developed the 338-300 RUM in 2000-2001. I never claimed to be the first to neck a 300 RUM case up to 338. I named the cartridge 338 Edge because I had caught some rumblings that Remington was going to introduce a 338 RUM but the case was to be a little shorter and I wanted to avoid any confusion about what could be chambered in the chambering. If you can get a 338 RUM to fire in an Edge chamber the results are nasty. It has been my experience that the Edge will best the 338 RUM by 75-100 fps in 30" barrels. In shorter barrels and especially lighter bullets the difference in very little. The simple fact is that I had wanted something very easy to load for (no fire forming) with good performance using heavy VLD bullets , specifically at the time the 300 gr SMK. To that end I accomplished what I had wanted and began recommending it to customers, writing articles, shooting hunting videos, renting them in LRH classes etc. It is alot of this work in hunting / tactical platforms and recommendation that I will take credit for. If the 338 Edge's current popularity was from someone elses work, most people would be calling it a 338-300 or any of several other names I have seen it called. Reality is this if you are launching a 300 gr SMK @ 2800+ you will be happy with your rifle as a long range hunter, chambering is and always will be a debated issue. I know what I like and what works for me. I hope this helps in your quest for a 338 LR hunting rifle.

 

[436]

Shawn,
Thanks for dropping by in this conversation, along with setting the record straight on your development of the .338 Edge. I do have a few questions maybe you could help with.

From what I can understand, Remington's cartridge ".338 RUM" is 2.850" inches in length, with a case capacity of 113grs of H2o... an with a advertised velocity of (2800 fps) Maximum pressure 65,000 psi

Your design'..., the ".338 Edge" is 2.850" inches in length, with a case capacity of 110.2grs of H2o pressure unknown, but I would guess it's not over 65,000 psi?

It's also been stated {I'm not necessarily saying by you} that 338 Edge is similar in ballistics to the .338 Lapua Magnum, which has a case capacity of 114grs of H2o and a maximum pressure 60,916 psi????

So with a small amount of information out there on the aforementioned, I'm sure you can see how it would be confusing to the layman... Maybe as a neophyte on the subject you could help out.

I was thinking that when pushing a 300gr bullet in all these case; one over the other, it would be pretty hard to pick up a consistent 50 fps to 100 fps over the other; in any barrel length or bullet weight.... This is what makes the discussion some what cloudy... In any other cartridge, picking up 50 fps to 100 fps is not a game changer... with that said; doing it takes more powder normally, or at the very least a much better case design. The 50 fps to 100 fps velocity can be nothing more than, free bore or temperature change from day to day when tested over a chronograph, from what I understand. I'm sure you know that just setting ammo in the hot sun for a few minutes will give you that and then some. So put that aside; where is the big gain in the .338 Edge over the others with only 110.2grs of powder? What's in the case design I'm missing?


I've read a few of your very fine articles; on testing and hunting with the .338 Edge..... Perhaps'.., my case capacity is wrong on the Edge....?
Have you ever strain gauged the pressure on your cartridge and establish a maximum psi pressure that you could share with us?

I'm not talking here about who claimed what or who said; "what" I have a genuine interest in the caliber and cartridges, and I'm sure many others here would find it enjoyable to read as well.

Thanks again for the history up date on the .338 Edge and how you came about designing it.

436

 

[Shawn Carlock]

I looked back throught my 338 Edge notes from 2001, April. I water weighed ( not took what a program suggested they had ) the following:

338 Edge 117.4 gr
338 Lapua 113.3 gr
338 Ultra 110.4 gr
340 WBY 101.0 gr
338 Win Mag 84.1 gr

Of H2O.

Also as a side note the case length of the 338 Edge is 2.820" (trim length) and the 338 RUM is 2.760". The 338 RUM also has a longer neck and effectivly has a case body length about .090" shorter then the Edge. This gives a 7-7.5 gr advantage to the Edge. The problem with advertised velocities is that we use H1000 and run about 2800-2850 from a 30" barrel. The Edge is easly capable of another 100+ fps by simply changing powder. However these powders are temperature sensitive, lack the tight ES or other issues. I would much rather give up a 100 fps to have ES in the single digits and have the same velocity (within 20 fps) form 20 to 100 degrees ( yes we tested it ). So what it really comes down to is that I like the combo we are using and believe it to be much better than the others as a whole package. Then we started into developing various rifle paltforms around the 338 Edge and are still in developement of a couple of very advanced platforms. Hope this clears up the case capacity issues. If you have any other Q's lets here them.

 

[436]

Shawn,
Again thanks for your most interesting input... In my search for more information on the .338 Mag's I 'm finding that the H2o volume of the .338 Edge case is misleading in a number of writings; for instance, you can find the .338 Edge anywhere from 110.2grs of H2o'…, as I've stated'…, to your input of 117grs of H2o.

This can be a little confusing... with your {what I can find} max powder charge of 104grs.of RL-25 with a 200 gr.
Now here's the head scratchier; Sierra says that the .338 RUM with a 200 gr. bullet holds 112.0grs of H870 with a case that {your info} has only holding 110.4grs of H2o I think you can see how this can a little hard to lock down. I understand powder weight vs. water volume weight, but still a very misleading set of numbers.
I understand deferent types of powder and densities…. so on, but volume is volume and that's what all the .338 cases bring to the table and base cartridge performs on.

Since the .338 Edge is in your stable, may I ask; what is the actual case dimension of the cartridge really is. And I must say that I'm a little confused at too what your case body measurements are this might help me get my head around it if I knew; from base (rim) to the junction of the body and shoulder & neck. I haven't found any kind of case schematics that would help me at this point.
I know you have better things to do than explain stuff way… but I can't find a better source to obtain information from, the horse mouth, if you well.
Cheers
436

 

[Shawn Carlock]

A good number of things can effect pressure and velocity. We run the Edge's with no freebore most of the time. Simply running freebore would up the velocity, but there is no free lunch, other things tend to suffer.

Case demensions are simple they are 300 RUM demensions with a .364" neck.

 

[436]

Shawn,
Again sorry for any lack of understanding on my part; but I keep coming up with a case volume of some where around 110grs for the .300 RUM, and if your .338 Edge is "just a 300 RUM dimensions with a .364" neck ; your words." how are you getting 117.4grs of water as volume? The of course setting the bullet diminishes that is considerable.

Your notes showing volume as you remember them.

"I looked back throught my 338 Edge notes from 2001, April. I water weighed ( not took what a program suggested they had ) the following:

338 Edge 117.4 gr
338 Lapua 113.3 gr
338 Ultra 110.4 gr
340 WBY 101.0 gr
338 Win Mag 84.1 gr

Of H2O."

300 Rem Ultra Mag
The case capacity of the 300 WSM is 80.4 gr (of water) full case, 72.9gr with a flat base bullet seated .400". In comparison the 300 Win Mag is 87.0gr and 82.1gr, respectively. Jamison's 300, with a .1" longer body measures: 82.0 and 74.4grs. Ballistically, given the improved volume to surface area, the 300 WSM essentially equals the Win Mag's performance even with its slightly smaller capacity. The 300 WSM is usable for any task the 300 Win Mag is capable of. Other cartridges of this class are: the 300 H&H Mag, 81.3 and 74.3gr; the 300 Wby, 91.0 and 83.5gr; 30 Newton 83.3 and 75.8gr. These are well short of the 30-378 (120gr, 112gr) or 300 RUM (110gr, 102gr) class cartridges.
Nominal bullet diameter is .308"; SAAMI lists the maximum pressure at 65kpsi.

I would think unless you wildcatting the .300 RUM cartridge physic would dictate; it would hold very close to the original volume….. With you saying; yours is just a necked up .300 RUM'…, the aforementioned would seem to be correct.

From what I can find on the .300 RUM and the .338 RUM'…, these number seem to be correct. See below. It would seem the .338 RUM did pick up 2.8grs of water by volume.

.300 RUM
Designer Remington Designed 1999
Parent case .404 Jeffery Case type Rimless, bottleneck Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm) Neck diameter .344 in (8.7 mm) Shoulder diameter .525 in (13.3 mm) Base diameter .550 in (14.0 mm) Rim diameter .534 in (13.6 mm) Case length 2.850 in (72.4 mm) Overall length 3.600 in (91.4 mm) Case capacity 110.2 gr H2O (7.163 cm³) Rifling twist 1-10" Primer type Large rifle magnum Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa

338 RUM
Designer Remington Designed 2000
Parent case .300 Remington Ultra Magnum Case type Beltless, rebated, bottleneck Bullet diameter .338 in (8.6 mm) Neck diameter .371 in (9.4 mm) Shoulder diameter .5250 in (13.34 mm) Base diameter .5500 in (13.97 mm) Rim diameter .532 in (13.5 mm) Case length 2.850 in (72.4 mm) Overall length 3.600 in (91.4 mm) Case capacity 113 gr H2O (7.345 cm³) Rifling twist 1-10 in (254 mm) Primer type Large rifle magnum Maximum pressure 65,000 psi (450 MPa)

.338 Edge
Designer Shawn Carlock Designed 2001
Parent case .300 Remington Ultra Magnum Case type Rimless, bottleneck Bullet diameter .338 in (8.6 mm) Neck diameter .371 in (9.4 mm) Shoulder diameter .525 in (13.3 mm) Base diameter .550 in (14.0 mm) Rim diameter .534 in (13.6 mm) Case length 2.850 in (72.4 mm) Overall length 3.600 in (91.4 mm) Case capacity 110.2 gr H2O (7.163 cm³) Primer type Large rifle magnum


As a side note I have a call into a friend of mine Rick Johnson who was with Remington at the time these cartridges were under development; to obtain the true case volumes of the .300 and the .338 RUM if the above are incorrect.

At any rate; perhaps these figure are skewed… I could really say... beings there the only one I could find.
Bottom line in my question is pretty much the same as in my first question; how does the .338 Edge pick up 7.4grs plus in its case?

As for trim length of a case, which was brought up by another, that does nothing but keep the brass out of the throat, so I think that might be a moot point in case volume question.

Thanks again for all your help.
Cheer
436

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[steelhead]

I've got a rifle in 338 Edge that was built by Shawn and I will have to say that it ranks in the top two of my favorite rifles that I own.

When I took possession of the rifle, Shawn showed me how he reloads to get the best accuracy out of his rifles. When I got home, I was too impatient to do everything he does (weighing each bullet, etc), so I just quickly loaded up some rounds and headed to the range. With those quickly loaded rounds, I actually beat the test group he gave me by a few .001"! My velocities were averaging around 2870 too.

Yes you can compare it to the .338 Lapua. They are almost identical when it comes down to velocity. (Black Hills ammo list their 300 gr match at 2800 fps) What I really like about this cartridge is that, I can reload for a lot less than it would cost me to buy or reload for 338 Lapua, 338 Norma or 338 RUM.

338 RUM costs around $75 for 20 rounds of 225gr loaded ammo. Approx. $3.75/round

338 Lapua costs around $125 for 20 rounds, 300gr match ammo. Approx. $6.25/round

338 Edge costs approx. $1.93 per round to reload using Remington brass
338 Edge costs approx. $2.13 per round to reload using Nosler brass

338 RUM costs approx. $1.95 per round to reload using Remington brass

338 Lapua costs approx. $3.33 per round to reload using Lapua brass

338 Norma costs approx. $2.83 per round to reload using Norma brass

Like Shawn said, I can get my Edge to higher velocities (I think I hit 3000 fps once), but the accuracy seems to suffer. The 'sweet' spot seems to be in the 2850 to 2900 fps range.

The biggest complaint I hear from people who don't like the 338 Edge is that Remington brass sucks and Lapua is the only way to go. While I can't argue Lapua brass is excellent stuff, I've gotten 5 reloads out of the Remington brass and a friend of mine is getting a few more out of the Nosler 300 RUM brass, that he uses for the 338 Edge. With 300 RUM brass costing $110 per 100 and Lapua Brass costing $250 per 100, I can get twice as many cases for the same price.

While all this talk of case capacity has been interesting, I just have to say that it doesn't matter. The 338 Edge just flat out performs!! I'm not much of a hunter, but I've blown holes through 500 breneel 3/8" steel at 100 yards, ruined a few MGM sniper targets at a sniper match (480y and 540y), and tipped over a 3/8" thick steel silhouette target at 630 yards.

I have yet to hear of anyone who was disappointed with their 338 Edge or 338/300 RUM.

 

[MT4XFore]

Isn't it strange how ISU600rr's original post has been hijacked and noone seems to care? I do believe that 436 has a crow to pick with SC. I dont know why, but is obvious that regardless of his overly condescending posts to SC, he doesn't believe a word SC says. ISU600rr"s original question is still valid and even though there are 338's out there that outperform the edge, it seems the edge is what is most popular. I think Steelhead hit the nail on the head, the edge is easier and less expensive to reload for while maintaining and "edge" in performance on MOST of the competition in that caliber. So let's try to answer ISU's question and stop trying to defame someone's character. Not taking sides here, but someone needed to speak up!

 

[Shawn Carlock]

436,

Your welcome check and talk to who ever you like, all I can tell you is if you take the cartridges I listed and fill them to overflow with water and then weight that water that is what I got. That being said the 338 Edge will hold a little more than the 300 RUM because the neck diameter is larger. Also I did these on fired cases this will make a small difference. I was only after a comparitive analysis of the rounds, to that end I got the info I was after.

ISU600rr,

I hope you don't feel your thread got to far off topic. I believe that your original question has been covered by several of the posts. The "Big Deal" is that it works, works well and very easy. Alot of the drive behind it has clearly come from the video of it's field performance. We just don't get complaint about them.

 

[436]

Steelhead,
Thanks you for the information on the cartridge and its performance in your AO... It sounds like you've had very good luck with both the rifle and cartridge…. And I do understand the bra$$ issue in today's economy, or in any economy when your shooting the big sticks.

MT4XFore,
I don't believe this subject was hijacked. Conversations have a habit "by nature" of morphing into other conversational points with in the same subject matter related. That's just the way communications between people work…. which you can see is evident in yours post.

Had ISU600rr wanted, he could have chimed in anytime, his last post was asking geargrinder a question'.., geargrinder didn't answer ISU600rr post, end of question.

I would also agree with you, Steelhead made a very fine point(s)'.., and based on his experience with "both" the rifle and cartridge, the performance being stellar in his opinion.

On my end'…, I was only asking how the velocity and case volumes were obtained… adding; there is a crap load of "numbers" {which I provided to Shawn for his opinion(s)} out there {not just for the .338 Edge} but as with "others cartridges" which no one can seem too agree on, so I was just trying to understand; which member's are the right numbers...

Now let's understand something right now; I have "no", as you put it "crow to pick with Shawn" If I did; I just say it out loud… right from the get go…. I said "nothing" about whether I believe or don't believe Shawn… those are your words, and a very poor choice of words I must say.
Nor has Shawn brought that to my attention, so I must assume your acting on your own, and those were your comments.
As for you comment that I'm "trying to defame someone's character" that's a real stretch champ, no one has made any sort of attack on anyone's character, until now.

Well… as to "sides" I'm surreally glad you're not taking sides…. One might misread your post thinking you are. Come on'.., ruckup troop; that is exactly what you're doing. You say you can read between the lines of my post and interpret and what I'm thinking?? Bull ****… perhaps you're the one wanting to stir the pot.

You seem to think you know what I'm thinking… let's turn the table. You say "I'm overly condescending in my questions to Shawn"… Shawn's not complaining about that. You say "I" don't believe a word Shawn has said... So how do you know that? You've said that; someone needed to speak up! Your words… Are you saying Shawn "not" capable of defending his ideas; now "I" know is not true and everyone knows it, Shawn is a very skilled gunsmith, ballistic designer' and writer; he doesn't need your help to state his position in this conversation with me or anyone else, I don't really think "he" needs; a hero worshiping individual, to bring his opinions to the table.
What makes you think you're speaking for everyone that read this post? that's pretty **** center of the world if you ask me... There no mandate that someone has to answer anyone's questions here... even Shawn.

I just asked Shawn a few technical questions; I provided what information I could fine that would relate to our conversation, which Shawn has responded to. Now if you'd like to answer those questions for him'…, you're more than welcome to give it a shot….

And if you have an answer(s) for ISU600rr's original post or lost question'…, jump in I'm sure everyone would be more than glad to read it. Other wise you might let ISU600rr and the others speak for themselves. I would've thought others would have answered ISU600rr if they had information they could provide him.

So MT4XFore I'll make your day and withdraw my questions for Shawn, not because I don't believe they aren't relevant questions, nor do believe Shawn wouldn't respond... but because it seems to put a strain on you.
So this will be my last post on this subject….
Cheers
436


Ps: Shawn I wrote this post before you posted yours, this is really more for MT4XFore benefit... Try not to read anything into it, and thanks for your response
Cheers
436