338 Allen Xpress, RL33 load development

Found out something interesting about RL33 over the past couple days. In the 7mm AM and 300 AX.

Now I have tested my 338 AX with this new powder and velocity gains were quite good but velocity gains per grain of powder increased extremely consistently from quite low pressure loads right up until red line pressures. Very impressed. Velocity consistency was pretty darn good as well over the entire range of pressures.

That was with a 300 gr Berger seated 10 thou off the lands.

That brings us to this weekend. Trying to get my old 7mm AM set up with the Berger 180 gr Hybrid so I decided to test RL33 in that as well. Velocity was great but I noticed that as my load increased, I started seeing more velocity spreads. In fact up 125 fps with same load in velocity spreads. I thought this was quite strange so I looked into the issue a bit more.

Well, long story short, this barrel on my 7mm AM is VERY long in the tooth, in fact I have had a replacement barrel sitting here on the rack for three years expecting a need to replace the barrel. Well, that time came. After checking the throat length in 7mm AM, I found that its length had increased by 170 thou over the original length. Severe erosion!!! Expected. At 100 yards, surprisingly, the rifle is still consistently in the 3/4 moa range for three shot group size. At long range however, the velocity spreads have started to show up in pretty noticeable vertical stringing.

That is where the interesting part comes in. With Retumbo, I can drive the 180 gr Berger Hybrid to 3308 fps with comfortable loads and extreme spreads run in the mid to upper 30 fps range. At long range, the rifle holds 1 moa pretty easily out to 1/2 mile.

With RL33 however, using an OAL of 3.670" to fit in the HS Precision DM. I can drive the same bullet to an average velocity of 3397 fps with what appears to be very similar pressure but with extreme spreads in the 125 fps range...... Again, this is with roughly a 170 thou jump to whats left of the lands, same as for the load with Retumbo.

So, with the same bullet, with the same jump to the lands, Retumbo will get 3308 fps and 3/4 moa 100 yard groups and sub 1 moa 800 yard groups. RL33 will get same 3/4 moa 100 yard groups but at 800 yards its closer to 3 moa and nearly 100% vertical stringing.

Now for the interesting part. IF I seat the bullets out very long to JUST touch whats left of the lands, the OAL is 3.840". Had to drop a grain of powder off each load as pressures increased significantly removing the bullet jump, now with Retumbo, seating the 180 gr Berger to the lands produced and average of 3318 fps. Seated to the same OAL, RL33 averged 3411 fps. Close to the average velocities before but with a grain less powder. The Extreme Spread of Retumbo was similar at 36 fps, but now with the bullets seated to the lands, RL33 had an Extreme Spread of 29 fps.

Goes from 125 fps seated off the lands to 29 fps seated to touch the lands....... Unfortunately, I have the HS Precision DM on this rifle. If the Seekins 3.900" DM system was available, I would just order one of those in and keep this a 7mm AM. But with the current rush on custom gun parts, those are hard to come by so need to stay with the HS.

Decided it was time. Saturday, I pulled old green apart and replaced the barrel. I decided this time however to go with my 300 AX as I had a #4 contour, fluted SS barrel blank from Lilja with a 1-10 twist. Finish length was 26.5" with finished with a small PK brake installed.

I had wanted to use the Berger 215 and 230 gr in the freshly barreled rifle but their Ogives are to long for the HS Precision DM system. So I went with the 200 gr Barnes LRX just to see what it would do. Again, I did a load work up using RL33 to see what it would do with this bullet. Velocities increased consistently and predictably until I got close to upper pressures and then velocity spreads really started to jump again. Top load was 104.0 gr RL 33 with the 200 gr LRX which averaged 3375 fps but had an extreme spread of 100 fps. At 100 yards, it was shooting right at 1/2 moa for three shots. I was very happy with the accuracy but again at longer ranges, 700 yards today in the wind!!! It was showing pretty noticeable vertical stringing again with the 100 fps level ES numbers....

Now, I seated these 70 thou off the lands as recommended. Accuracy was great but velocity spreads were quite poor.

Could it be that RL33 simply NEEDS the bullets seated close to the lands for proper powder ignition and therefor consistant muzzle velocities.......

To test this, I headed back to the shop, grabbed some 220 gr SMKs off the shelf. I used these bullets simply because I knew I could seat them to the lands and still fit in the mag box. Worked up the load with RL33 and topped out at 3250 fps and extreme spreads of 18 fps......

Next took the same load but seated the bullets 50 thou deeper. Also added one more grain of powder to bring the velocity back up similar to the first load at 3239 fps. However, ES numbers increased to 68 fps........

Seated the bullets another 50 thou so now 100 off the lands. Left the powder charge where it was. Average velocity dropped to 3202 fps. ES numbers rose to 103 fps.......

Then I took some Retumbo and did the same thing. Seated to the lands, Retumbo averaged 3148 fps and had an ES of 21 fps.

Seated 50 thou off the lands and increased one grain of powder for an average of 3141 fps, ES number was 26 fps.

Seated another 50 thou off the lands, velocity dropped to 3118 fps and ES numbers were 31 fps. All of which are totally acceptable for me.

So, I have to deduce from this that RL33 really likes to have some resistance on ignition to get consistant ignition. You do not see this a lot with stick powders. I have seen it ALOT using the ultra slow burning ball surplus powders as they can be a bit hard to ignite so seating the bullets just baring touching the lands produces a steeper pressure spike which seems to improve powder ignition and in turn improves velocity spreads.

My brother tested RL33 in his Warbird today as well, this was with the 180 gr Accubond and he topped out at 3518 fps. His velocities were very consistant throughout testing with no high ES numbers at all but he was also seating to the lands. In his rifle however, Retumbo averaged 3511 fps with about 6 grains less powder so we decided that Retumbo was probably a better match to the 180 gr bullet weight in the Warbird. There just is no real sense to burn an extra 6 grains of powder simply to match the velocity of Retumbo.

I feel with heavier bullet weights, RL33 may start to show its velocity advantages over Retumbo but with the relatively light 180 gr bullet, it tops out very similar to Retumbo.

So, back to my testing, I have loaded up a batch of test loads using the 200 gr Accubond. This bullet allows me to seat to the lands which I have seated them roughly 5 thou into the lands with an OAL of 3.650" which easily fits in the HS DM system. They also offer a BC that is a bit higher then the 200 gr LRX and should be a bit easier expanding at extended ranges. This is all on paper, until I prove them its all a theory.

Again, it seems that RL33 DOES NOT like a lot of bullet jump to the lands so for bullets such as the barnes what need 50-70 thou jump, you may see your ES numbers increase. With bullets that you can seat right up to the lands and even into the lands, ES numbers have been quite impressive so for the Accubonds, SMK and Bergers or any other conventional cup jacketed bullet, I believe you will see very good quality ES numbers.

Hope to get these 300 AX test loads sent down range tomorrow when I test a couple customer rifles. If things hold out, ES numbers should be tight and I am expecting to see the 300 AX be able to drive the 200 gr Accubond to +3400 fps in the 26.5" barrel length. Will report what happens.
 
Thanks Kirby,

Interesting.

I'm pressure testing a 300 RUM with 38 thou jump and win brass. Perhaps I should test 5 thou jump before loading for ES and precision checks.
 
Very interesting Kirby. We need to watch for this more often. Reminds me of my 338 LM with 300 OTM's. It shot equally well at 300 yards from .015 off to .065 off the lands. But the ES was way different. Dropped to single digit ES at -015 off the lands. Never paid it much mind then, but now you have me thinking.

Thanks

Jeff
 
Thanks Kirby,

Interesting.

I'm pressure testing a 300 RUM with 38 thou jump and win brass. Perhaps I should test 5 thou jump before loading for ES and precision checks.

Winchester makes RUM brass??? Was not aware of that.

I do not think you need to seat REALLY close to the lands. From what I have seen, anything 10 thou or closer has produced good extreme spreads. I really do not like seating hunting loads to touch the lands. Depending on throat leade angle and ogive design, its possible to get a situation with the addition of a bit of carbon fouling and you can get a stuck bullet. When out hunting, that can be a real pain in the rear!! I have seen this most often with Berger VLD and custom bullet designs with ULD ogive designs. Also, the Hornady A-Max can also be a problem. Blunter ogives do not seem to have as much of a problem. Not as much contact surface area to the lands so neck tension usually holds them solid in the case.

Again, from my limited testing, 10 thou off the lands seems to produce quality ES numbers and should insure function for a hunting rifle.
 
Very interesting Kirby. We need to watch for this more often. Reminds me of my 338 LM with 300 OTM's. It shot equally well at 300 yards from .015 off to .065 off the lands. But the ES was way different. Dropped to single digit ES at -015 off the lands. Never paid it much mind then, but now you have me thinking.

Thanks

Jeff

Had my old 7mm AM not went belly up, I probably would not have noticed this at all.

I have not tested this with the 300 gr bullet weights in 338 caliber. I can not say its as noticeable of a problem with this bullet weight. The shear mass of these bullets may be all that is needed to insure consistant powder ignition so it may not be a problem at all but may be worth testing just to see.

That said, if your not having problems, why waste the barrel wear!!! I certainly would not have if the problem did not come up with the 7mm AM.

From the sounds of the performance your getting in your LRMK, I would suspect your running pretty darn consistant!!
 
Kirby,

Your comment on RL-33 needing resistance to get best ignition is a good explanation with what I reported last year. I noticed that RL-33 worked best with the heaviest bullet for caliber.

Thanks for the testing and insight.

Ross
 
I am deleting all the posts that resulted from Kirby's complaint about a certain company.

Our rules clearly prohibit that regardless of who the parties are.

8) There will be no threads started for the purpose of airing your problems with individuals, suppliers or manufacturers. (Complaint Threads) Handle those issues privately.

While I go through the deletion process I am closing the thread. I will re-open it when the deletion is complete.
 
Len, my thread was started to talk about RL33 load development in my 338 AX. Not started for the sole purpose of anything to do with Lazzeroni or his products. Just want to make that very clear. Just offering information that was from a direct question from another member of LRH. Will try to avoid that in the future I guess.
 
At lunch today, I was able to do some velocity testing with my 300 AX with the 200 gr Accubonds and RL33.

Started at 103.0 gr and worked up from there. Bullets seated 5 thou off the lands. Here are the results. Again out of a 26.5" barrel length. Three round velocity average and ES.(Not real accurate but you will see a trend as you read on)

103.0 gr..............3259 fps (ES: 27 fps)
104.0 gr..............3308 fps (ES: 31 fps)
105.0 gr..............3333 fps (ES: 21 fps)
106.0 gr..............3384 fps (ES: 13 fps)
107.0 gr..............3423 fps (ES: 14 fps) Best top working load
108.0 gr..............3454 fps (ES: 26 fps)
109.0 gr..............3466 fps (ES: 32 fps) Visable Ejector ring, to hot in my opinion

I then repeated the test but with the bullets seated 50 thou off the lands and ES was in the 30-40 fps up to 105.0 gr load but jumped to 70-80 fps at 106 and 107 and was 80-90 fps above that......

Again, seems to be holding consistant that LR33 like to have the bullets seated close to the lands for consistant powder ignition and muzzle velocity. Windy as heck today, no long range testing. Maybe tomorrow at lunch.

For comparision, my standard load with Retumbo was 100.0 gr under the same bullet, same OAL which averaged 3330 fps. With similar pressure signs RL33 is getting 3423 fps so nearly a 100 fps increase in velocity.

One more thing I have been noticing in my 300 AX is that RL33 is producing more carbon fouling then what you would expect with a stick powder. Not bad, cleans out easily but more then you will see with Retumbo. This is likely because I am not getting the slower burning powder up to the same working pressures as Retumbo in the 30 cal. Did not seem to produce any different carbon fouling in the 7mm AM or 338 AX or 338 Raptor but in the 300 AX, she smokes a bit more then I am used to!!! Again, stay on top of it and not an issue at all.
 
I will be down the road but in this rifle, which is a lightweight 7.25 lb bare rifle weight walking rifle which has an HS Precision DM system, the 230 gr are to long to fit in the magazine box.

Originally, I was wanting to try the 215 or 230 gr Berger Hybrid but after taking a few measurements, it was clear that I would need to seat them well off the lands. In my testing so far, that will not work out well with RL33.

I have my prototype Raptor LRSS rifle in 300 AX that I will be trying these Berger bullets in when I get a chance. Right now, Just trying to get this rifle up and running in time for big game season!!! Pronghorn season starts this weekend and I am still working up a new load for my rifles. Typical gunsmith, waiting for the last minute to get my own rifle up and running!!!

My main interest with the 230 gr berger Hybrid will come when I start load development on my 300 Raptor. This will likely happen after this big game season when things kind of get back to normal but if they work, I think the 230 gr Hybrid may be flat out amazing in the 300 Raptor and I sure it will be great in the 300 AX as well.

With my original 300 Raptor design which is based off the 338 Excalibur case, the 230 gr Berger was able to be driven to 3300 fps out of a 30" barrel length with relative ease. Will be looking to add a bit to that with the production 300 Raptor because its case design has a larger volume.

So the short answer is yes, will be testing that bullet but not in this rifle. Want something with a bit more legs on it so I do not have to seat the bullets short and have enough barrel to get the most out of this great bullet design.
 
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