300 Win MAG to the brink?

[Topshot]

At 400 yds, either bullet will be deadly. I didn't know the 210 had a thinner jacket, but maybe it does.

At 1000 to 1100 yds, my contention is the 7mm RM 168 is deadlier than the 300 WM 210, because the 168 is more likely to expand in the animal due to it's higher remaining impact velocity at those extended ranges.

Your idea to keep POI velocity above 1700 fps to ensure expansion makes good sense to me. However how many cartridges can do it?

I may be wrong but I think even the 338 EDGE is struggling to get past 1100 yds and still be over 1700fps with the 300gn SMK.

 

[Pdvdh]

Your idea to keep POI velocity above 1700 fps to ensure expansion makes good sense to me. However how many cartridges can do it?

I may be wrong but I think even the 338 EDGE is struggling to get past 1100 yds and still be over 1700fps with the 300gn SMK.

Some do it better than others. High BC bullets launched at the higher velocities are top dogs. The ones that will reach way out there quite handily are along the lines of the 338 Allen Mag, the 7mm Allen Mag, the 300 RUM, 7mm RUM. A large factor in maintaining downrange velocity is the elevation (station pressure) the shots are taken at. Specifically, the 338 Edge drops to 1700 fps with the 300 SMK at ~ 1000 yds near sea level. But at 4000-5000 ft the same bullet in the 338 Edge gets out to ~1200 yds before dropping to 1700 fps impact velocity. How many stories do you read on this forum where game are killed at 1200+ yds. Not many. At sea level - basically none. Most the ultra-long big game kills are at higher elevations where the velocity is maintained a little better due to less dense air at those altitudes.

Another consideration is that when you go to larger calibers, you can still get some tissue damage with larger diameter bullets even though they may not expand dramatically. I believe most expanding bullet manufacturers identify 1700-1800 fps as their advertised recommended minimum expansion velocity. I personally believe that their recommendations are on the conservative side, and that the majority of their bullets will expand (at least minimally) at somewhat lower velocity. Certainly a bullet that hits bone in the front shoulders is likely to expand at substantially lower velocity. I've never shot a game animal past 1000 yds yet, so don't let me lead you to believe I'm the expert at those extreme ranges. But I've seen a few animals hit at closer ranges with bullets that didn't expand and it wasn't pretty. That's why I get uncomfortable stretching my ranges out to where my remaining impact velocity drops below 1600-1700 fps.

A couple examples I've witnessed first hand. I shot a dall sheep ~15 years ago at a distance of 12-13 yds with a 280 RCBS Improved, using a 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. Muzzle Velocity was about 2950 fps. The ram was broadside and I hit it just behind the front legs at mid-height. They ram jumped and switched positions 180 degrees. He looked across the river bottom at some sheep on the opposing hill-side. When he did I could see the blood spot start to form on the exiting side of his rib-cage. I finally stood up and when he saw me he bolted down the hill ~100-125 yds and stopped. He evenually lay down there. 25 minutes later he was weakening but still alive. So I walked down to him and when I got about 10 yds away he jumped up and took off again, this time running awkwardly. I shot him again with the same bullet and load from about 15-20 yds quartering into the boiler room. This bullet expanded and flattened the ram like a pile-driver. I've observed similar consequences with a black bear where a Nosler Ballistic tip out of a 338 Win Mag full-metal-jacketed through the bear at a distance of ~220 yds without expanding. We recovered that bear but only after shooting it on the move a couple more times as he scrambled to reach cover.

I don't have the cure-all solution you may have been seeking. But I know I want my bullets to expand when they hit the game animal. And I know the slower the impact velocity, the more likely I am to be disappointed with the results, and myself.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

For those reasons I run my drop charts to 1800fps. I want to be conservative in my calculations. For the sake of the pray. This is for big game, of course. My choices for bullets have concentrated around dedicated hunting bullets. The highest bc dedicated hunting bullets I can find. I shoot them into water jugs at varying ranges. To catch the bullet and make a personal determination as to its ability to expand and retain weight. This keeps my mind at ease.

This is just what I do, and by no means am I saying that anyone else's method, or choice of bullet is wrong.

Steve

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Oh, by the way, I am a 30cal fan. I like the bigger frontal area on impact.

Steve

 

[KQguy]

What about twist rate?Does a bullet that spins faster have better terminal performance?I know alot of the 7mm's use a 1-9 twist,as opposed to a 1-10 twist in a 300WM.

 

[J E Custom]

For those reasons I run my drop charts to 1800fps. I want to be conservative in my calculations. For the sake of the pray. This is for big game, of course. My choices for bullets have concentrated around dedicated hunting bullets. The highest bc dedicated hunting bullets I can find. I shoot them into water jugs at varying ranges. To catch the bullet and make a personal determination as to its ability to expand and retain weight. This keeps my mind at ease.

This is just what I do, and by no means am I saying that anyone else's method, or choice of bullet is wrong.

Steve

I to use dedicated hunting bullets when hunting big game. ( on varmints it doesent matter
a hole lot).

Also I use shot placement to enhance a bullets performance.

For example=If using a ballistic tip out to 400 yrds I will shoot in the area just behind the
sholder because the impact velocity is high and expansion will be plenty. From 4 or 500
yrds to the low impact velocity recomended by the maker I will try to just clip the back of
the sholder on impact or the offside sholder to stop the bullet.

Below the 1800ft/sec velocity range calls for a high sholder shot to guarantee bullet
performance.

I think if you look at most of the 1500+yrd shots made buy the members they will be high
sholder shots no matter what bullet is used.

There is no magic bullet but if you know the performance limits of the bullet you want to
use like Steve does you can have more success shot to shot.

If one goes hunting armed with all of this knowledge he can decide whether or not to take
an other wise iffy shot with confidence.

J E CUSTOM

 

[DENWA]

Just think, somewhere there is a guy talking about his 30-30 (that fires a 170gr flat point at 2,100fps) that has killed a 100 deer out past 300 yds.


And he probably thinks we are crazy.


Two years ago in Texas I shot a nice deer at 417yds with a ballistic tip. The wind was stronger than I had doped and moved the impact into the rear ham. I never recovered a piece of that bullet larger than a grain of salt and the wound channel stoped within <3 inches.

A Second shot was necessary when he returned to his feet. Realizing my mistake I held off my reticle a half dot. This bullet impacted the rear of shoulder and I did recover part of the Jacket but not much else. The front sholder looked like a shotgun with #9 shot at close range...Blood jello.

I have sworn off ballitic tips for any animal larger than a dog.

 

[J E Custom]

Just think, somewhere there is a guy talking about his 30-30 (that fires a 170gr flat point at 2,100fps) that has killed a 100 deer out past 300 yds.


And he probably thinks we are crazy.


Two years ago in Texas I shot a nice deer at 417yds with a ballistic tip. The wind was stronger than I had doped and moved the impact into the rear ham. I never recovered a piece of that bullet larger than a grain of salt and the wound channel stoped within <3 inches.

A Second shot was necessary when he returned to his feet. Realizing my mistake I held off my reticle a half dot. This bullet impacted the rear of shoulder and I did recover part of the Jacket but not much else. The front sholder looked like a shotgun with #9 shot at close range...Blood jello.

I have sworn off ballitic tips for any animal larger than a dog.

That was my point!!!!!

The best bullet cant make up for a bad shot.

I have had a few poor wound channels over the 50+ years I've been hunting and sometimes
wondered what happened, but in allmost every case it was bullet placement.

When used right the ballistic tip is a very consistant performer.

The new Accubond is a better allround performer than the NBT but I still use the NBT on a lot
of my pistols and lower velocity cartriges with great success.

JUST MY 2 CENTS
J E CUSTOM

 

[NONYA]

The BTs and Accubombs both are unreliable for penetration,I have seen the same results out of a 7 mag,anything that comes close to 3000 fps turns them into grenades from time to time.gun)

 

[Rimfire]

How can one *** shoot an animal and blame it on a bullet after the second better placed shot does its job? Or a blanket statement like NBT's aren't good for anything larger than a dog.

No one said long range hunting is easy, and the further you shoot the more important shot placement is. You need to know your combo and where the bullet needs to be placed. NBT's can come apart esay and this is part of what makes them a good long range bullet. When I used them in a 300 WIN for less than 400 yards I had a 3K fps load and it killed everything I pointed them at from deer to Africa. For long range the same bullet was pushed 3350 fps and results were perfect.

Shot placement for me doesn't change HIGH SHOULDER is the only safe long range shot. Low can wound or blow a leg off high kills or misses.

 

[7STDUBBERU]

I will not shoot Ballistic Tips for big game anymore either when there is achance of extended range shots. I love the Ballistic Tips for 300 and less and then Accubonds for farther shots. I am also doing alot with Bergers this summer.

The BT's are the best in my book when you hit the animal in the boiler room but just about the worst when your shot is off it's mark. Too much room for error for me to use them at longe range.

 

[J E Custom]

The BTs and Accubombs both are unreliable for penetration,I have seen the same results out of a 7 mag,anything that comes close to 3000 fps turns them into grenades from time to time.gun)

Sorry if I may have offended some but I try never to make a blank statement like this that
there is only one of anything that is the best.

I may not agree with someone but in most cases it boils down to preference based on
experience with a particular component.(bullet,case,powder,barrel and so forth ).

And isn't it strange that a poll for the most popular big game bullet on this site list the
Accubond as the most popular?

Not my opinion but the majoritys.

So shoot what you want , I DO.
J E CUSTOM

 

[DENWA]

How can one *** shoot an animal and blame it on a bullet after the second better placed shot does its job? Or a blanket statement like NBT's aren't good for anything larger than a dog.

No one said long range hunting is easy, and the further you shoot the more important shot placement is. You need to know your combo and where the bullet needs to be placed. NBT's can come apart esay and this is part of what makes them a good long range bullet. When I used them in a 300 WIN for less than 400 yards I had a 3K fps load and it killed everything I pointed them at from deer to Africa. For long range the same bullet was pushed 3350 fps and results were perfect.

Shot placement for me doesn't change HIGH SHOULDER is the only safe long range shot. Low can wound or blow a leg off high kills or misses.

I too was using the 300WM at about 3300fps. The first shot hit MUSCLE. No Bone or anything. Filet the ham open and ruined some of it no real damage or penetration.

The second shot hit the rear shoulder Bone and DESTROYED everything. I don't call that performance. I got lucky that the animal didn't need a third shot. Not too proud of it, but a lesson learned.

My experiences with NBT's have been bad. I don't like them for large game. My Uncle uses them exclusively on everything. I've tracked more hogs and deer for him than his dog.

You can use them for your Maryland deer the will work just fine.

Just kidding, I too, live in MD.

 

[Tactical]

Guys, a few things to consider

Just because a bullet has great BC does not mean it is always best choice

The 6mms are great to hit things but dont have much smack when it comes to downing live things.

The 7mm and 30 cals are hard to beat when they hit most live things

Now I saw alot of figures here and ask this. What happens when you drive that 210SMK 3000 fps out of a 300WM? Anser is simple it stays just about side by side with a 338 Lapua to 1500 yards or so.

Now why larger bores are for a couple of reasons.
Everything being equal they tend to have longer bbl life
338 Lapua has longer bbl life than hot 300WMs
300WMs have longer bbl life than 7Mags
7Mags have longer life than hot 243s with heavies

In end you need to get penetration and dump energy. The larger bores seem to do that better.

Just my opinion.