300 Varminter Update

[jwp475]

Patriot44, Have you seen any pressure data? yes or no...

I called 3 Different ballistic labs and they stated plainly that 4000 FPS in a 300 WSM would definitely be above SAAMI pressure...

Again have you seen any pressure data?

This has nothing to do with a Kirby Allen Love Fest as you naively call it...

 

[Varmint Hunter]

40-50-60 or more posts espousing the virtues of a gun that he never owned, in a controversial cartridge/bullet set-up that he's vaguely familiar with, and about the great work of a gunsmith that he has yet to have ever owned one of his rifles.

The more people suggest that Wildcat might want to wait and receive this rifle before going on and on and on, the more he justs continues to post away while still waiting for the big brown truck to arrive. Is anyone really surprised that there has been some negative responses.

If Wildcat isn't getting paid as a web marketer for Richard; he should be. It appears to be the sole motive behind dozens and dozens of his posts, which are backed by nearly no personal experience of the gun, cartridge or gunsmith.

By the way - I'm not knocking Richard or his special purpose rifles, just the delivery of the message.

 

[jwp475]

why is it abrasive to you? that really is interesting comment.

You did not believe solid posted rifle results earlier, so it is grossly naive to think that when you will believe it later.

Better yet, why don't the non believers just ignore the post and sing kumbaya to each other? That way no ****in contest. No one is making you post your non beliefs. Just keep them to your self and everyone is happy.

BH

Do you have any SOLID DATA or is it just talk, it takes money to buy Whiskey. I know that I have spoken to 3 Ballistic Labs and they all did not believe it to be possable with out exceeding SAAMI pressure limits....

 

[Fiftydriver]

P44,

Your response is silly. Whenever someone pulls the "Kirby Allen Webpage" or "Kirby Allen Cult" cards, its only a sign that valid points have been brought up that you can not counter with educated comments and data and results.

Are you telling me you would take a round of 300 WSM ammo set up for one of these rifles that produces 4000 fps with a 125 gr BTip and chamber it and fire it in say a Win M70 factory rifle, or a Savage, or a Rem 700?

Would you?

Load data from the major bullet manufacturers including Hornady(V-Max) and Nosler(Bal. Tip) list the 300 WSM as a 3500 fps rifle with these bullet weights in a 24" barrel. Are you telling me that in a 30" barrel, those same loads will get you 4000-4100 fps and stay under the 65,000 psi SAAMI limits imposed for a reason on this chambering?

Are you telling me that 6" of barrel will get you 500-600 fps of velocity with same pressure? In reality, it would be more like 25 fps per inch gain in velocity with the 300 WSM.

Have I ran my Allen Magnums hard, you best your *** I have, why, because its my responsibility to find the limits of the rounds I design and offer to the public. For your information, I report all my load data and list any load that is higher they I feel is comfortable as a "too hot" load and should not be used.

I also offer my customers a velocity range to load to, not a powder charge. I tell them where to start which is a proven SAFE point to start and then my customers work up from there to a velocity range.

For example, I have driven my 7mm AM to 3600 fps with the 160 gr Accubond in a 27" barrel. In that instance I get longer case life the Wildcat is reporting with his projected rifle. Even though that is true, my recommended max load with the 160 gr Accubond is 3450 to 3475 fps in a 27" barrel with the 7mm AM. That is 125 to 150 fps under what I have shot the rifles to.

Another example, my 270 AM will drive a 169.5 gr ULD RBBT to 3450 fps in a 30" barrel. I recommend to my customers that it be loaded to 3250 to 3300 fps with this bullet in same barrel. Why, so that there is a margin of error.

Now with all this said, PLEASE show me where someone can get a factory rifle chambered in any of my wildcats that could be loaded mistakenly with one of my loads? Your comments are as silly and unfounded as they could possibly be. If your going to have an educated debate, bring the facts and the data, not the "this is the Kirby Allen Cult" bailout.

Thats weak and flat out wrong. If you ask 100 guys if this is to hard to push the 300 WSM, that is 100 guys with any experience with internal ballistics of any kind, I would be amazed if 10% said this would be safe pressure levels for any 300 WSM.

You give me to much credit, maybe your just outside the box looking in. Stop beating your head against the wall and listed to what is being said. I could give a rats rear what Wildcat does or shoots or how he loads his rifles.

I care a great deal about a new shooter that comes in late on these conversations that happen over and over again and decided his M70 can be his new wonder varminter and get 4000 fps out of it.

That is why I comment about it, could not care less about what Wildcat does or who he has build his rifles.

If you think Richard is promoting his 300 Varminter(WSM) for use in factory rifles, your sadly mistaken and again uneducated.

You are trying to make this a Kirby Allen vs. Richard Franklin issue. Do whatever you think. That is not the case in any way but I will bring up my opinion EVERYTIME that I feel there is a safety issue that could arrise and there is certainly one here. If you can not see that, your blinders are tighter to your head then I ever expected.

Your comments that everyone in disagreement with this topic is under my CULT influence speaks volumes again of your uneducated state of mind. They have the same concerns I have and everyone else should as well.

Again, if you feel I am being a hypocrit, please let me know where any of my rifles can be loaded into a factory rifle where it would be dangerous to fire them in????

Yep, good arguement again, better just fall back on the "this is the Kirby Allen Web page".

What a joke and I am sick of it and guys like you that can not offer anything other then flames to a conversation.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Pdvdh]

Patriot44

"Why would a gunsmith like Richard Franklin promote a cartridge if it was unsafe? I am not trying to be an *** Kirby but the man has way more experience than you, and I have never seen an article written about your rifles. However, I've seen many articles about Richards builds and techniques. I don't think he would promote something if it didn't work or was unsafe. Why would 6mmBR.com allow a blog, about the 300 Varminter, to continue on it's site if it was going to be unsafe? Please, someone answer these questions."

Why would an entity like NASA promote a space shuttle if it was unsafe? I don't think they would promote something if it didn't work or was unsafe.

****... I've seen lots of articles written about NASA. For the life of me I guess I just don't get it. Maybe they never saw a shuttle (rifle) blow up or rupture before. Maybe they didn't know it was safe to launch if the temperature was above 40F but unsafe to launch below 30F. Maybe they knew there were risks involved but made a decision that those risks were acceptable, given the ambitions of their project. Maybe the design was safe for 25 launches (shots) but not safe for 2000 launches (shots)?

Richard's rifle may be "safe" for Richard to load and shoot, but overly risky for someone with less knowledge of rifles and reloading: someone that may stray slightly from Richard's exact, intended application. That seems to be one take-home message here.

I'm no attorney, but I have to believe that Richard would be at a significant disadvantage if one of his 300 Varminter rifles, or cartridges, damaged the eyesight of one of his customers such that he ends up in Civil court. All the plaintiff's attorney would have to do is present this thread and some of the other Wildcat threads on the 300 Varminter for a jury to wonder whether or not Richard designed and promoted a rifle/cartridge combination that operated outside of normal industry standards.

Who know's the thoughts and motives of another, such to be able to speak to them? The answer: Only Richard could pretend to answer your questions.

 

[jwp475]

The Marie La Bow School of Voodoo Ballistics is graduateing students at an Alarming rate....

No one will answer the Pressure question that I have asked Wildcat and His Cult Followers and That Is Have Any Of You Seen Any Pressure Data???????

 

[jwp475]

Patriot44

I'm no attorney, but I have to believe that Richard would be at a significant disadvantage if one of his 300 Varminter rifles, or cartridges, damaged the eyesight of one of his customers such that he ends up in Civil court. All the plaintiff's attorney would have to do is present this thread and some of the other Wildcat threads on the 300 Varminter for a jury to wonder whether or not Richard designed and promoted a rifle/cartridge combination that operated outside of normal industry standards.

QUOTE]



Be difficult to prove that your reload was not at fault.

 

[BountyHunter]

Do you have any SOLID DATA or is it just talk, it takes money to buy Whiskey. I know that I have spoken to 3 Ballistic Labs and they all did not believe it to be possable with out exceeding SAAMI pressure limits....

Have you seen any Oehler 43 data yourself or is it just talk? I hear the whistle of gums flapping I think.

Do you or they have any solid data other than mystical phone calls with god knows what questions? NO NO NO NO because no lab has ever run pressure data on that light a bullet with zero freebore. All anyone has to do is look at the data out there such as the Oehler 43 tests run on the 300 WSM with extended freebores showing less pressure and speers site for instance to see that they all say lighter bullets equals less pressure.

Same naysayers will say that you cannot run the 210s at 2950-3050 out of the 300 WSM and I will show at least a dozen guys doing every weekend and brass lasting many many reloadings. I have got at least 4000 rds like that myself.

So the bottom line here is there is absolutely ZERO factual data to back up any Kirbyite claim. All we have is talk from the Kirbyites.

Lets look at the remington action which is now in the 338 Lapua. Now I will say I am the first to be "uneasy" to say the least with it in the 338 Lapua. Yet smiths on this board have done it and NOT one of the Kirbyites have jumped on them. NOT a **** one. The 338 is not officially SAAMI spec'ed yet it is often quoted at 68K, wooo that is 3K above the WSM. Now according to SAAMI the case has to be tested to 25% over that which puts it over 82K PSI for the WSM and 87K for the 338 Lapua. Do I want to load that, heck no.

So just why has the Kirbyites got their panties in a wad over this one gun. Answer is real simple. It was not invented by Kirby and it is a light low BC bullet. It really is that simple.

Just how is it that 30-40 of these guns are out there doing exactly as advertised without one incident and the ONLY naysayers are only here on this board (the Kirbyites). Why is that? Is everyone else just too stupid to see what the Kirbyites do?

If you are so sure of your data get your butt on 6mmBR spout your crap and we will all sell tickets to watch you get your butt handed to you. This would be more fun than anything lately. Will it happen, heck no because deep down you know it is all wild conjecture and you do not want to embarress yourself off this board. If you are so **** sure go for it, do not just jump on wildcat, grow a pair and play with the big boys.

Lets look at the facts. Not one of the naysayers claim to have shot it. Not one of them has even seen it, not one of them has any Oehler 43 pressure data or velocity data, yet they profess to be the all knowing gods of what is safe and not. Kirby's two points on what is dangerous and what FPS can be achieved is nothing more than wild speculation on his part. Rampant disbelief does not make it factual.

In reality all the naysayers are relying on is their leader to preach the "HIGH BC HEAVY BULLET FOR ALL OCCASIONS" gospel yada yada, and they all beat their tamborines and sings hyms of praise and join in pointing out the sinners of high velocity fragile varmint bullets at velocities Kirby does not believe.

Is Wildcat naive for continuing to post. Absolutey or just likes to stir the pot. I have mentioned to Wildcat all he is doing is baiting you guys and he should just forget it. Do not know if he enjoys it or what but the same goes for you all. Forget posting too until you can post show zero freebore Oehler 43 data until then you are guilty of the same things you accuse Wildcat of, at least he has 30 plus guys saying it is true who own the guns and not one of you has anything factual.

So JWP475, drink your whiskey because that is all you have got!

BH

 

[jwp475]

I talked to 3 Ballistic Labs (Barnes, Nosler, Sierra) and again I stated that they said not at SAAMI pressure...

CAN YOU BOUNTYHUNTER REFUTE THEM ARE IS YOUR ONLY RESPONSE ANOTHER POST OF BIBLICAL PORPOTIONS AND NO FACKS....

 

[Pdvdh]

My guess is Richard would regret having built the gun for Wildcat in the first place if he'd known Wildcat was going to start such a poor public relations 300 Varminter promotional crusade. He should have built one for Bountyhunter... no problems there.

 

[Slopeshunter]

I've said very little about this whole 300 Varminter thing. To each his own. But it is too bad that Richard Franklin didn't choose to modify the 300 WSM cartridge design a bit to prevent anyone from trying to achieve these results in a factory rifle.

 

[Coyboy]

I have followed this and past threads a long time, I by no means am going to pick a side. I can understand Wildcat wanting a rifle the way he wants it. He is the customer and is the one with the money on the line. If a customer comes in my door and is set on a particullar bullet/cartrige/barrel, I build it for him because this is what he wants.

Wildcat, what I don't understand is why you would want to turn necks and only get two fireings per case?

I am also concerned about saftey, I would hate to see Wildcat get his rifle and not get 4000fps with Richards recomended load. Would you add a grain or two just to hit 4000fps, and prove to people you never met, that you were right? At the risk of damaging an expensive rifle or injuring your self?

I am also concerned with long term metal fatigue, continued exposure to overpressure loads, could someday lead to a catastrofic failure. It might not be with the first barrel but what about the second barrel on the reciever? After 4000 plus fireings of intense pressure many things are possible. At that point are you going to inspect the bolt lugs and reciever rings for any stess cracks after each cartrige is fired? Its like taking a ride on the traveling carnies farris wheel. You just hope it holds out until your off the ride, knowing in the back of your mind someday the thing needs to be scrapt, but the maintenance man will keep limping it along.

As far as this being Kirby Allens web page, that seems a little rediculous. Kirby has posted a ton of usful information over the years that had little or nothing to do with a gun he built. He has undertaken the development of his line of cartiges, and like any new cartrige he reports data and results. Seems to me the guys who own his rifles brag more about him and his cartriges, than Kirby does. (I might ad most of them own one of his rifles)

Will I ever chamber an Allen magnum? probably not. I'm more into efficiency and barrel life. But as I said before whatever the customer wants. I'm relativly new, and give Kirby, Shawn, Chris and Richard credit for the sucsess there having with their buisness.

Wildcat, We have all heard about your project by now. I truly hope you are happy with the results. Please be careful with your load development. When the guys on the board ask for first hand results their looking for;

1. Load data to include but not limited to, Powder charge wieght with vel. and e.s. with any pressure indicators associated with bolt lift and brass life.

2. Actual field shooting result which include temp, weather conditions, wind speed/direction.

3. Drift and drops at those conditions.

4. And of course, accuracy.

If you reach 3850fps with the light bullets your still going to have a varmit hammer, and will sleep a little better knowing your not running loads in the red zone.

Good luck,
Jim See

 

[eddybo]

Bountyhunter....why dont you take one of wildcat's 300 varmiter rounds and fire it through your heavy gun and let us know the results. I would urge you to use a string to pull the trigger. That is my only hang up with the varmiter. I think Richard should make some change to the shoulder angle to prevent someone from making a mistake.

I am sure wildcat will be perfectly safe firing those same rounds in his custom built, slow twist, tight chambered, custom actioned rifle. Just because I disagree with his choice to leave the case alone doesnt mean I think he is not a super gunsmith an innovator or that he is stupid and it sure doesnt mean I am a "Kirbyite" even though I do hold him in high regard.

I dont have a problem with wildcat and think he is probably a nice guy. He always tries to be helpful. But, I am tired of hearing him brag about a gun he doesnt even have. If I got on here and posted the freakin specs on every rifle I have had built in the last year I would expect people would be tired of me talking about it. I would also expect someone to let me know I was making an *** of myself so I would shut my big mouth.

I do not know why he cant do what most here do. One post asking questions about his build, either accept or decline the advice given. Then a follow up post showing a picture of the completed gun with a initial impressions/range report. Instead I have seen his spec sheet so many times that I can almost quote it and he doesnt have the gun yet.

I would put my primary gunsmiths work up against any smiths work with confidence. But, I dont drop his name everytime I come on this sight even though I would say that he is my friend, not just my gunsmith. Even if he wanted or needed work I do not think he would appreciate a neophyte such as myself dropping his name all the time. I doubt Richard Franlin would appreciate being the subject of this controversy when so much of it seems to be fueled by something other than his gunsmithing skills. If you think Richard Franklin appreciates being the topic of this thread, then wildcat is a real friend to him. If you dont think he would appreciate the controversy it has to make you wonder what kind of friend he is. I personally think he is dragging his gunsmith through this to feed his own ego.

BTW I run the 208 A-Maxs at 3000+ out of my 300WSM and have multiple firings on my cases. But, there aint no way I would think about firing one of those varmiter rounds through my gun. Okay I am shutting up and doing what I usually do with threads like this reading them in silence.

 

[BountyHunter]

Eddybro

You make an excellant point about me firing it on its face. However you miss the main difference and why that is not even a relevant suggestion. Richard is using a zero freebore and 15 twist. I have an extra long freebore for a FB 187 BIBs and have to seat 210s long to reach the lands and 10, 11 and 12 twists depending on which gun.

All I am saying until someone has something factual, other than "I thinks", compared to 30-40 guys who own the guns and say it works, this arguement does stand up.

How is remington putting out the Lapua with 3k more PSI if it is a danger? NO one has addressed that yet.

Are the naysayers going to post their letters to rem saying how stupid rem is based on "their intuitive" analysis and mystical verbal lab reports that do not exist in writing. Well guess what I am writing all three labs saying that they are being specifically quoted on the internet as it is clearly unsafe and asking who did the tests and asking for a copy. Think I will forward the results to Richard and recommend that he can give them to his lawyer and this thread.

If this truly is a safety issue, then let them write a scientific article based on facts, Oehler 43 pressure reading from one of Richards guns and post it on 6mm BR. I am sure that if it stands the test of the real ballisticians there, then we have something to talk about. Otherwise just unsubstantiated cheap shots on Richard Franklin and Wildcat. (However, wildcat might deserve a spanking for teasing them like this)

JWP as for this thread and others showing up in court as evidence agains Richard, fat chance. There sure to hell are not any expert witness ballisticians quoted here, just a bunch of WAGS, inuendo and hype which is not legal in court at least against Richard, as for others, what does your attorney say about it?

BH