30 378 weatherby

[longrangebo]

Did you count me in that group Bo?
Mine is on a MarkV Wetherby action with a 30" Hart.
Actually what Howard did with that cartridge, was to create the 300 Norma many years before there was a 300 Norma.
I didnt realize that till maybe 5 or 6 years ago when a friend visited our camp for bear hunting.
He had just had a 300 Norma built and showed me a cartridge.
I said that looks just like my little Wolfey, so we compared them, and took 2 emptys and checked them out.
They were within 1 gr as for capacity weighed with water.
So could the person who created the Norma have gotten ahold of one of Howards cases somehow?

No I did not know you had one of those also, I knew you had the long version , that is the one you changed into the 338-408 correct? I know they were made mostly for shooting target at 1000yrs. I think He did that to get a more filled case? Is that right?

 

[yobuck]

No I did not know you had one of those also, I knew you had the long version , that is the one you changed into the 338-408 correct? I know they were made mostly for shooting target at 1000yrs. I think He did that to get a more filled case? Is that right?

I think his reason mainly was in order to use 30" barrels as opposed to the then difficult to get 36".
Problem was making the cases from the full length 378s. He had all the dies needed to do that, and he charged 10 bucks a box to do it. I think that was spending money for Bob when he was young.
He built my gun originally for Bob Lynn from York for shooting at Williamsport. But he died after using it only a few times. According to his notes i got with the gun it only had 130 some odd rounds thru it.
It's still the most accurate L/R gun i have. And yes my Wolfe action is now a 338. But i question why i own it, the short Wolfe/Norma does everything we need.

 

[Sral1987]

May i ask, if I do consider carrying a 30 inch + barrel afield. How big of a velocity difference would there be between a winmag and that barrel length and the .30-378 at 30 inches?
Because the winmag would gain velocity too.
I have seen winmags doing 3020fps with a 200 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel and .30-378Weatherbys doing 3200 with the same 200 grain bullet out of a 26 inch barrel. I cannot see the real world advantage of burning 40 grains more powder for almost nothing ...

 

[yobuck]

May i ask, if I do consider carrying a 30 inch + barrel afield. How big of a velocity difference would there be between a winmag and that barrel length and the .30-378 at 30 inches?
Because the winmag would gain velocity too.
I have seen winmags doing 3020fps with a 200 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel and .30-378Weatherbys doing 3200 with the same 200 grain bullet out of a 26 inch barrel. I cannot see the real world advantage of burning 40 grains more powder for almost nothing .

Well realize for a moment that 50 years ago there were long range hunters driving 200 gr bullets @ 3500 fps from 36" barreled 30x378s. The key of coarse was having the right powder, which at the time was limited to pretty much one, which was a WW2 surplus
known as H 570.
Modern powders have change much of that, but still today longer barrels with that cartridge are superior to shorter ones.
If your type use or preference dictates shorter barrels, then another option might well be better for you.

 

[Sral1987]

Well realize for a moment that 50 years ago there were long range hunters driving 200 gr bullets @ 3500 fps from 36" barreled 30x378s. The key of coarse was having the right powder, which at the time was limited to pretty much one, which was a WW2 surplus
known as H 570.
Modern powders have change much of that, but still today longer barrels with that cartridge are superior to shorter ones.
If your type use or preference dictates shorter barrels, then another option might well be better for you.

The differences are very minor and people imagine them to be there. The truth is you can never duplicate the same conditions and one day a certain cartridge might shoot very wel and leads you to believe it is superior, whereas in reality the differences are small as math shows...

 

[yobuck]

The differences are very minor and people imagine them to be there. The truth is you can never duplicate the same conditions and one day a certain cartridge might shoot very wel and leads you to believe it is superior, whereas in reality the differences are small as math shows...

Well i believe you might still be free enough to believe whatever you wish.
But id advise you to not be betting whatever you cant afford to lose on your opinion, because lose it you will, regardless of what math your using.

 

[Sral1987]

Well i believe you might still be free enough to believe whatever you wish.
But id advise you to not be betting whatever you cant afford to lose on your opinion, because lose it you will, regardless of what math your using.

Yes it makes a difference you are right, 100 yards ... between a winmag and a .30-378

 

[yobuck]

Yes it makes a difference you are right, 100 yards ... between a winmag and a .30-378

Well when you find the time, go some place where you can shoot 1500 yds, and dial 37 minits onto your scope from the 100 yd zero with your 300 Win.
Now that might varie a bit with different day to day conditions, but not by more than a few clicks.
Or you could go to 1700 and dial in 50 minits and see where that lands. That would be for a 200 gr SMK leaving the muzzel @ 3500.
Thats the only type of math im familiar with when it comes to shooting at distance.
And yes you are correct in that the larger cartridges are even better at the longer distances.
And there is only (one) good way to prove that.

 

[Sral1987]

Well when you find the time, go some place where you can shoot 1500 yds, and dial 37 minits onto your scope from the 100 yd zero with your 300 Win.
Now that might varie a bit with different day to day conditions, but not by more than a few clicks.
Or you could go to 1700 and dial in 50 minits and see where that lands. That would be for a 200 gr SMK leaving the muzzel @ 3500.
Thats the only type of math im familiar with when it comes to shooting at distance.
And yes you are correct in that the larger cartridges are even better at the longer distances.
And there is only (one) good way to prove that.

I am going to build a .30-378wby with a 30 inch barrel anyways and let you know how that worked.

 

[Marine sniper]

For the OP's question; don't rule out the very slow burning VV powders, 20n41, etc.
I had a 34 in barrel 30-378, I could push 190 Bergers at 3600

 

[yobuck]

For the OP's question; don't rule out the very slow burning VV powders, 20n41, etc.
I had a 34 in barrel 30-378, I could push 190 Bergers at 3600

I have no doubt you did.
When it came time to rebarrel my 30/378, i opted to do it in 338.
So the gun is now a 338 Big Baer with a 34" barrel, which gives me 3250 with the 300 gr.
At the longer distances, the 300 gr with the good velocity is more consistent as for accuracy than my 30/378 was.
I still use a shortened version 30/378 most of the time however.
That case is identical to the 300 Norma, and it has a 30" barrel.
Im using 190s in that with Retumbo for 3400 fps.
The gun was built by Howard Wolfe on a Mark V action prior to the introduction of the 300 Norma cartridge.
As a practical matter for hunting, a 300 Norma is probably a better choice than the 30/378.
As good as it is, it still isnt as good as the larger cartridges at the longer distances, even with the heavier high BC bullets.

 

[Gamesniper19]

Will it run out of a 10 twist. Perhaps. It depends on your definition of "run"
IMO berger is a bit conservative in their twist recommendations even at 1:9. I know this to be true through industry discussions as well first hand testing comparisons with other calibers such as 300 Norma and 30 Nosler. I even did a test necking a 300 Norma down to 7mm and running the 195 berger; similar bullet properties to the 245, finding I needed an 8 twist to stabilize it at 3200 FPS mzl velocity. The cliff notes are:

• the 30 inch barrel helps and will run fine out to about 1100 yards and then it starts to show lack of effective stabilization spin
• Stability at that distance drops below 1.1 which now subjects the bullet to YAW where the center of pressure not being stable will cause the bullet to YAW on its axis due to reduced spin at the center of gravity. The slower the bullet goes, the more it is subjected to YAW (think YAW for a fighter jet for instance)
• The 245 Berger is the most extreme version of this YAW principle and based on the data, a 10 twist is not optimal

• 

Now, if its all you have go for it. Do your own testing and have fun doing it. See what it will do. If you HAVE to run that bullet though and want to shoot truly ELR past 1000 yards, be prepared to have to change your barrel or run a smaller bullet

 

[yobuck]

Well shooting for the sake of shooting, and shooting for hunting, arent necessarily both lumped together.
At what distance do the heavier higher BC bullets requiring a slower twist start to pay dividends?
I can tell you that it is much further than most long range hunting is done.
At 1500 yards my 30x378 using 200 gr SMKs needed considerably less clicks on the scope dial than it did with 240 SMKs.
And you know what, very very few people here ever have or ever will kill an animal at 1500 yards.
Fact is that there are very few days if any, during a typical 2 week PA buck season that conditions will even allow for finding one at that distance.
Facts are one thing, but the reality of it all is another thing.

 

[Gamesniper19]

Well shooting for the sake of shooting, and shooting for hunting, arent necessarily both lumped together.
At what distance do the heavier higher BC bullets requiring a slower twist start to pay dividends?
I can tell you that it is much further than most long range hunting is done.
At 1500 yards my 30x378 using 200 gr SMKs needed considerably less clicks on the scope dial than it did with 240 SMKs.
And you know what, very very few people here ever have or ever will kill an animal at 1500 yards.
Fact is that there are very few days if any, during a typical 2 week PA buck season that conditions will even allow for finding one at that distance.
Facts are one thing, but the reality of it all is another thing.

It wasn't a post to make you mad. It was a post to share data and perspective - we can all learn, me included. Facts make reality, if its not based on fact its just opinion.
I used to live in Pa and have killed maybe 60 deer there and yes, the distance we are talking about is way past what I would call ethical - this is an ELR posting forum, past 1000 yards. Right?
Help me understand why a heavier and longer BS bullet would require a slower twist?