.280 AI controversy explained ...

[MudRunner2005]

JE, so basically you're saying that if I get my .280 AI reamed to SAMMI specs with a SAMMI spec reamer, I can only use Nosler .280 AI brass? If it is a tighter chamber @ 0.014" shorter, wouldn't a crush-fit fire-form be better with that tighter chamber? So, basically wouldn't that mean the SAMMI spec chamber is actually the better choice?

I am confused as to what everyone is saying is or is not the best choice of chambering for this caliber.....Ackley or SAMMI?

I will be going SAMMI with my build and shooting Nosler .280 AI brass. I wish Lapua would offer .280 AI and .25-06 AI brass, that would be awesome.

 

[FEENIX]

Typical straw man argument

"type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position"

A video was posted that stated the "controversy was solved" and I replied simply but graphically. When pushed I linked 3 different sources of information outlining the different headspace for old and new (which the video did not address)

2 other posters explained their similar experience to mine outlining the headspace difference

Then an expert opinion was posted that said basically nothing

So if you can point me at data or facts that prove that the .014" difference does not exist, then please do. I don't know if you have any personal experience with this since you have not posted it and I am not trying to make it personal.

Perhaps the problem is that some are labeling it a "controversy". In my mind it is controversial in that Nosler and Remington have decided that they were the authority on 280AI without concern for many many years of history on chambering for the caliber. Also controversial would be the fact that Nosler sold their 280AI brass without an advisory or warning on the box that some chambers might have excess headspace.

So is that solved?

No, the difference is that, this thread was never meant to generate any argument other than helpful information and opinions for end -users to decipher as JE noted "I can appreciate all of the different opinions and like to see and hear them because that's what this web site is known for.". Others shed some light, open/absorb the information, and accept personal fault D), however, all I hear from you are bullchips, horsehockey, and donkeydong ...

Opponent? Are you serious? I never considered anyone here as an opponent. lightbulb

You're right, I do not have any negative experience like you did. Share your experience, be constructive, and let us move on positively, ... is that asking too much?

One reamer, two gauges and two chambers that end in the same head space, not hard math lightbulb

 

[FEENIX]

Perhaps when Remington and Nosler come along and set a SAAMI standard that has a headspace that is .014" shorter than your chamber and brass starts being manufactured for it at the new SAAMI standard

Then you will know how we feel

PS don't know if 270AI is already SAAMI standardized but you should get my point

And why should I have any problem? The very experience wildcatters (which I am not or claim to be of any authority) don't follow SAAMI ... they give SAAMI something to standardize and keep them in business. lightbulb

Cheers!

 

[J E Custom]

JE, so basically you're saying that if I get my .280 AI reamed to SAMMI specs with a SAMMI spec reamer, I can only use Nosler .280 AI brass? If it is a tighter chamber @ 0.014" shorter, wouldn't a crush-fit fire-form be better with that tighter chamber? So, basically wouldn't that mean the SAMMI spec chamber is actually the better choice?

I am confused as to what everyone is saying is or is not the best choice of chambering for this caliber.....Ackley or SAMMI?

I will be going SAMMI with my build and shooting Nosler .280 AI brass. I wish Lapua would offer .280 AI and .25-06 AI brass, that would be awesome.

The SAMMI reamer is all you can buy now because the reamer manufactures can only make This
reamer now (Unless you want a wildcat).

The real Issue is the head space. there are two head space gages you can use. If you want to shoot
Nosler brass use the head space gage that is for the reamer you buy. If you going to shoot all other brands of ammo/brass I prefer to head space with the 280 rem Go gage.

If you are going to make your brass out of 30/06 brass you simply size it with the 280 AI dies just enough to close the bolt(That will leave a donut that Is 30 Cal to set the head space for fire forming.

If You use 25/06 or 270 brass you have to seat the bullet long to maintain head space (You Must reduce the load when seating the bullet against the lands)

The reason I like to use the other go Gage(The 280 rem) It is .014 thousandths longer,is to be able to shoot factory ammo while Fire forming (All except Nosler)with perfect head space. this also has the 280 head stamp on the ammo. (Not a real issue but nice and easy).

My concern is using ammo with to much head space. Also you are right,if you chamber and head space with the New AI you will have .014 thousandths crush on other cases and can probably close the bolt
on the for fire forming. Some times if the case is to tight it,s memory will cause it to remain larger than your chamber causing you to have to bump the case the first loading to get it to chamber smoothly.

As I said earlier, I am sure everyone that says it is OK would not tell anyone that, if it was unsafe I just have a problem building a rifle with very close tolerances and then shooting Ammo with a head space
difference of .014. and prefer to build a rifle that will/can use many different brands of cases.

We have probably beat this to death and it looks like it is a personal choice to anyone that is going to
build a 280 AI. And hopefully this debate has brought to light the difference in the two AIs

I just hope that anyone reading this debate does not decide not to build one of these fine rifles.

I think it comes down to a personal choice as to which way you want to go and that we have made something simple into something complicated.

J E CUSTOM

 

[varmintH8R]

I have read a ton of posts on this site and others, gunsmith bulletins, etc. I have not found anything that definitively answers the question in my mind. When it comes to reloading, I do not tolerate any uncertainty. Since I don't know for sure, I will continue to fireform.

After reading this entire thread, I recant my earlier post. Just like all of the other threads on 280AI, we have come to a point of EXTREME CLARITY on the subject. There is absolutely no confusion, doubt, or hyperbole surrounding the chamber dimensions. We have videos in support of a difference, in support of sameness, we have gunsmiths, hobbyists, and hard-core reloaders with differing opinions, and no company with liability or stake in the matter officially on the record.

If you are a hobbyist (like me) and interested in 280AI, it is a great cartridge (+1 to JE CUSTOM). If you are going to use Nosler AI brass, I would recommend measuring it for headspace vs a 280rem cartridge firedformed in your particular rifle before buying a pile of it. Cheap insurance IMO. Unless all of the above seems to give you more certainty than it gives me.

PS: I caught "bullchips" and "horse-hockey" but missed "donkeydong". This is entertaining and so much better than the f-bomb bickering I see on other forums. I mean that sincerely, it is one of the reasons I enjoy this site - opinions differ without degrading into all-out bar fights.

 

[FEENIX]

After reading this entire thread, I recant my earlier post. Just like all of the other threads on 280AI, we have come to a point of EXTREME CLARITY on the subject. There is absolutely no confusion, doubt, or hyperbole surrounding the chamber dimensions. We have videos in support of a difference, in support of sameness, we have gunsmiths, hobbyists, and hard-core reloaders with differing opinions, and no company with liability or stake in the matter officially on the record.

If you are a hobbyist (like me) and interested in 280AI, it is a great cartridge (+1 to JE CUSTOM). If you are going to use Nosler AI brass, I would recommend measuring it for headspace vs a 280rem cartridge firedformed in your particular rifle before buying a pile of it. Cheap insurance IMO. Unless all of the above seems to give you more certainty than it gives me.

PS: I caught "bullchips" and "horse-hockey" but missed "donkeydong". This is entertaining and so much better than the f-bomb bickering I see on other forums. I mean that sincerely, it is one of the reasons I enjoy this site - opinions differ without degrading into all-out bar fights.

Well said! Like stated in the 2nd paragraph of quote in response # 20, he measures everything.

 

[Trickymissfit]

to further stir up the quagmire and generate another round of complete chaos, let me add this:

* Parker always set his improved chambers up to headspace on a factory round, as we already know. Yet there is some more to this. He did his chambers to seat and headspace on the neck to shoulder junction point, and even then a tight fit. This allows the use of factory loaded 280 Remington ammunition as well as the round the fit the improved chamber design. Why Remington and Nosler decided upon an odd ball headspace is their own business, and have no serious problem with it. Still call it whatever you want, it's not an Ackley chamber! I completely agree with "JE" and his comments, as they are correct.

Now with Remington/Nosler doing brass that headspaces .014" shorter than what P.O. called out, I find myself somewhat baffled! It would certainly appear to me that it might be border line dangerous to shoot this new brass in a true Ackley improved chamber for what it's worth (I for one never like visiting the emergency room), but as robustly built as the Remington / Savage / Weatherby actions are built these days I doubt we'd know it. Other that some deformed cases. Would be very interesting to compare the Nosler case fire formed in an Ackley chamber (could care less what SAMMI says) to a generic .280 case fired in that same chamber. Although they probably got the correct taper per inch right, I suspect the rest will not be pretty. A trip to the Shadowgraph might change your mind thought!

Now I personally think Remington did it altogether wrong by simply shortening the headspace .014". Had they shortened the headspace about .078", I think the confusion would have been avoided ( 62mm verses 64mm case length). Doing that would have made the chambers unique to the cartridge design. Plus doubt we'd have seen 50fps difference.
gary

 

[woods]

So in conclusion

Was the original post showing only the video with no interpretation and titled

"280 AI controversy EXPLAINED"

correct?

Or was it

TURKEYTURDS

 

[FEENIX]

So in conclusion

Was the original post showing only the video with no interpretation and titled

"280 AI controversy EXPLAINED"

correct?

Or was it

TURKEYTURDS

Yes, the video provided both visual and narrative ... and Rhian summed it up in #25.

 

[blipelt]

Feenix you gonna be at the 1000yd. match this weekend? Myself and Richard will be headin your way.

Brent

 

[FEENIX]

Feenix you gonna be at the 1000yd. match this weekend? Myself and Richard will be headin your way.

Brent

No sir, I will out at the boonies of East Glacier keeping it wild and crazy with wife and some friends ... leaving Friday AM and returning Monday PM.

Good luck and enjoy the match.

Ed

 

[woods]

Yes, the video provided both visual and narrative ... and Rhian summed it up in #25.

So when me, cockcroft and Tnwhip all gave personal testimony to having excess headspace in our older 280AI chambers, which caused flattened primers........we were:

A. Liars
B. Mistaken
C. All have bad chambers that were reamed wrong

????

One reamer, two gauges and two chambers that end in the same head space, not hard math lightbulb

Funny thing about math (which I have a degree in, not that it is worth much), it doesn't always explain everything

For example

3 salesmen went to a hotel and asked for rooms. The desk clerk said he only had one room available and it woudl be $30.00

They took the room, each paying $10.00

Later the deskclerk realized he had overcharged them so he gave the bellhop $5.00 to give back to them

The bellhop decided he wanted a tip so he kept $2.00 and gave the salesmen back the $3.00 left over

Each salesman got $1.00 back so they each paid $9.00

3 salesmen @ $9.00 = $27.00
1 bellhop tip @ $2.00 = $2.00

$27.00+$2.00=$29.00

Where is the other dollar?


My point is math is not always straightforward and it depends a lot upon context and application. Someone in the video is not comparing apples to apples or his gauges do not tell the whole story

It sounded like you were quoting Hillary "What difference does it make?"

 

[FEENIX]

Maybe that's the challenge ... your math degree! I don't think Rhian meant to calcuate or solve a math problem.

 

[MudRunner2005]

The SAMMI reamer is all you can buy now because the reamer manufactures can only make This
reamer now (Unless you want a wildcat).

The real Issue is the head space. there are two head space gages you can use. If you want to shoot
Nosler brass use the head space gage that is for the reamer you buy. If you going to shoot all other brands of ammo/brass I prefer to head space with the 280 rem Go gage.

If you are going to make your brass out of 30/06 brass you simply size it with the 280 AI dies just enough to close the bolt(That will leave a donut that Is 30 Cal to set the head space for fire forming.

If You use 25/06 or 270 brass you have to seat the bullet long to maintain head space (You Must reduce the load when seating the bullet against the lands)

The reason I like to use the other go Gage(The 280 rem) It is .014 thousandths longer,is to be able to shoot factory ammo while Fire forming (All except Nosler)with perfect head space. this also has the 280 head stamp on the ammo. (Not a real issue but nice and easy).

My concern is using ammo with to much head space. Also you are right,if you chamber and head space with the New AI you will have .014 thousandths crush on other cases and can probably close the bolt
on the for fire forming. Some times if the case is to tight it,s memory will cause it to remain larger than your chamber causing you to have to bump the case the first loading to get it to chamber smoothly.

As I said earlier, I am sure everyone that says it is OK would not tell anyone that, if it was unsafe I just have a problem building a rifle with very close tolerances and then shooting Ammo with a head space
difference of .014. and prefer to build a rifle that will/can use many different brands of cases.

We have probably beat this to death and it looks like it is a personal choice to anyone that is going to
build a 280 AI. And hopefully this debate has brought to light the difference in the two AIs

I just hope that anyone reading this debate does not decide not to build one of these fine rifles.

I think it comes down to a personal choice as to which way you want to go and that we have made something simple into something complicated.

J E CUSTOM

Thanks for that explaination JE.