.280 AI controversy explained ...

[Pdvdh]

morning, Phorwath there r vast amounts of very good hand loaders with vast amount of loads sent down range. I was interested in some of the opinions of more experienced hand loaders and smithy's had experienced.

Evidently u r not one of them. THK. U lightbulbgun)

Life member TSRA, NRA and Okla. NRA

Well aren't you the spunky one... Afternoon, and l thank you for that. You're a real pal and ***et.

good luck again. You'll need it much more than the average member soliciting assistance and information.

Allow me one last opportunity to respond in a manner that qualifies for entry into your pool of revered and experienced? Here goes... "If I knew, I wouldn't try to answer that". Pals now?

 

[woods]

Uncalled for criticism just ****-ree

Phorwath was only directing everyone to facts as stated by Redding for all to see

"The SAAMI spec 280 Ackley Improved chamber is .014 inches shorter at the datum line headspace dimension than the traditionally accepted wildcat chamber spec as previously produced."

If facts get in the way of your agenda, perhaps you could work in a left coast judicial office (best not to apply at Redding)

 

[just country]

morning, I asked a simple question. I was not being a smart a s. with all

due respect I show if shown. all the vast experienced info from

individuals on this site. I thought someone could add some info.

the 280AI is one fantastic round. wildcatters have

been around before wwii. I have researched the gibbs, AI, weatherby and other

shoulder modifications. this is a very interesting subject. chit for chat

THK U lightbulbgun)

Life member TSRA, NRA and Okla. NRA. Korea and Viet Nam

 

[TOM H]

morning, I asked a simple question. I was not being a smart a s. with all

due respect I show if shown. all the vast experienced info from

individuals on this site. I thought someone could add some info.

the 280AI is one fantastic round. wildcatters have

been around before wwii. I have researched the gibbs, AI, weatherby and other

shoulder modifications. this is a very interesting subject. chit for chat

THK U lightbulbgun)

Life member TSRA, NRA and Okla. NRA. Korea and Viet Nam

I think phorwath was being pretty honest when he mention that he would of answer and suggested another way to get that answer. Only reason I answered your question best I could is I'm 75 and have some old data. There is nobody around for the 30's to answer your simple question as you put it.

Good luck on trying to get me to answer one of your guessing again!

 

[rharfo]

I bought a Redding .014 shell holder for use with my newer Redding neck sizer die. I used a standard shell holder with the full length sizer and seater die as they are Ackley version. All works well.

 

[just country]

morning, WOODS. seems like the **** ree is u. this site is knowers and unknowers

this is why unknowers in this situation like my self ask questions. little bit h s like

ur self reply to simple questions as u due. I am 71. I know what an a s is because

I can b one myself. name calling is for children??? I am using respect. who is

not!!! I was trying to start a discussion on the neck sizing of an altered case

by originators design. the person that answered the questions. I THK. U

I due not like being called names by a simpleton like urself!! this is not

a name calling this is a FACT!!!!!lightbulbgun)

 

[Pdvdh]

I know what an a s is because I can b one myself.

You didn't need to tell us that. We knew because you already demonstrated it.

 

[just country]

morning, sponsors know best Phew ?????

 

[Troutslayer2]

Most interesting thread on the internets right here. Just ordered a Proof Carbon 1:8.4" for what is presently an original 280AI chamber, and I am going to have it chambered to the SAAMI spec. I was trying to figure out if I need new dies, and I do, because all of mine are stamped 40 degree shoulder.

I am no expert reloader, but I get results. I will say this- been using Nosler brass in a traditional chamber. I have had case head separation on the first firing, more than once, pushing at only 2800FPS in a 26". That brass is a huge limiting factor because I can't push it any harder than pretty mild loads without other pressure signs. So, in my real world but limited experience- the Nosler brass is no good in the old chamber, or my rifle has excessive headspace.

 

[Pdvdh]

The Redding website explanation on the difference between the "traditional" 280 AI and the SAAMI 280 Ackley is exactly correct. I've done the math and proven it.

SO, you can either purchase a new resizing die for the SAAMI cartridge..., or if you have the capability;

1) Grinding 0.014" off the bottom of your Redding "40-degree" resizing die will convert it to the SAAMI 280 Ackley Improved. I'd take off ~ 0.015", just to make sure.

2) Or, even simpler, remove 0.014" off the top surface of a standard 280 shell holder, and your existing "40-degree" resizing die will resize cases to the SAAMI 280 Ackley dimensions. I say simpler because the steel shell holders aren't hardened, heat treated, steel. It will be easier to grind, sand, file 0.014" off the face of the shell holder for that reason. Also, if you booger it up in the process, shell holders are inexpensive compared to resizing dies.

 

[yawn]

Hilarious really after all this time. There are more recent threads now claiming the SAAMI spec to actually be LONGER than the original, go figure.

I suggest anyone with a genuine interest in this put aside the reamer drawings, the theroy, the "Redding have done this" and the "PT&Gauge have done that" ,
buys/hires some gauges and actually measure some chambers. Get some cold hard data. You will be doing yourselves and everyone you give advice to a big favor.

Troutslayer if you are getting case head seperation on the first firing you have excessive headspace. Get a rem 280 go gauge (about $28.00 or hire one) and test it. Your bolt should not close on it. Id happily send you mine if you wern't on the other side off the world.

 

[Pdvdh]

yawn,

Do you have any definitive position in the matter? If so, what might that be? Do you disagree with Redding? You have the insider's secret? The hidden truth? Care to share your secret and expertise on the topic? No, I doubt it... Safer to keep us yawning...

I went thru an extensive thread over on the "inaccurate" Shooter's Forum about one rear ago. Multiple members on that Forum, including the infamous Dave Kiff from PT&G, banded together against me (a lowly engineer) in claiming that the SAAMI 280 Ackley Improved chamber headspace was something other than Redding's description on their website, compared to the "traditional" 280 A.I.

It was me against the gang of 'experts'. There was no relenting from these experts. Turned very personal against me, a lowlife engineer. So I proceeded to rip them a new one.

I used Mr. Dave Kiff's own definition of a "traditional" Ackley Improved, which he printed out on a chamber reamer spec sheet I had previously purchased from him. From Mr. Kiff, the Master:

Note: This reamer must be used with a parent case shoulder angle gauge ground -.004 from standard SAAMI min Go Gauge per Mr. Ackley's handbook. The standard Go becomes the No Go and the -.004 gauge becomes the Go Gauge in order to fire form brass.​

Using Mr. Kiff's own Go Gauge criteria for a "traditional" Ackley from Mr. Ackley's very own handbook, -0.004" off the SAAMI headspace dimension at the SAAMI 0.375" reference datum on the shoulder of the 280 Remington, I proceeded to mathematically calculate the headspace dimension of the "traditional" 280 A.I. (per Mr. Ackley's definition = "traditional"). My calculations exactly duplicated Redding's description of the difference in headspace between the two cartridges. What did the inaccurate Shooters' Forum 'administrator' do next? Deleted the entire thread, in the effort to protect the tarnished reputations of the long-term member "experts" (and Silver $$ Contributors to their Forum).

I could run through those calcs again here, but I doubt yawner would learn anything from it.

Redding has it exactly correct. Any gunsmith chambering a "traditional" 280 A.I. barrel that produces a result differing from Redding's headspace description has used a flawed Go Gauge, a flawed chamber reamer, or has cut the chamber improperly. Same with the cutting of a SAAMI 280 Ackley Improved chamber. I can't control the correctness of the manufactured Go Gauges and Chamber Reamers, or the cutting of the chambers. But I can guarantee the headspace dimension to the SAAMI 0.375" shoulder datum. The math, done correctly, cannot be disputed. Which is why the inaccurate Shooters' Forum deleted the entire Thread. Couldn't allow an engineer to embarrass their Silver $$ Contributor experts. How dare me...

They wouldn't eat crow. Couldn't let a low-life engineer humiliate their members, illuminate their lack of expertise - on their very own Forum. Which speaks pretty lowly of their administrator, the Forums' credibility, and the intrinsic value of information posted on their Forum.

I'm prepared to defend my position on the difference in the headspace dimension between these two cartridges on this Forum. It's the same position as Reddings. Or I'll eat crow on the Forum. Any takers?

 

[yawn]

If your attitude was as above then I'm not surprised it turned personal.

Yes I have formed a position as every time I tested actual chambers, traditional and SAAMI, with gauges and try and find this magic .014 shorter chamber it vanishes in a cloud of mathematical smoke.
I could type out a long explanation what, how, why etc but it will be just more words on the internet and anyone with a strong belief is not going to be persuaded by more words. Thats why I advised to get some gauges and physically test. Its not that expensive and its quite easy.

 

[Edd]

Yes I have formed a position as every time I tested actual chambers, traditional and SAAMI, with gauges and try and find this magic .014 shorter chamber it vanishes in a cloud of mathematical smoke.
I could type out a long explanation what, how, why etc but it will be just more words on the internet and anyone with a strong belief is not going to be persuaded by more words. Thats why I advised to get some gauges and physically test. Its not that expensive and its quite easy.

I've always thought one of the best things about math was the absence of smoke.

Is it your position that there is no difference between the two chambers? If so, what is the actual test you recommend to conclude there is no difference?