Dan: Not once was the vulgar term "suck" used in reference to any caliber rifle in any of my post. All I have ever stated is the facts of what myself and my hunting buddy have found from shooting hundreds, yes I said hundreds, of deer over 30 some odd years. A 270 or a 280 are fine calibers but they are not 7mm Mags. If you slow a 7mm Mag down 150 to 200 fps it is not what I call a 7mm Mag. I know a lot of guys that have slowed down their 7mm Mags so they kill deer in their tracks but it still does not make them real 7mm Mags. One of the best shooting factory rifles I ever had was a Rem 700 SS 7mm Mag. You could fill a case up with AA3100 or H-4831 and stick most any bullet from 139 Hornady's to 160 Sierras in it and it would shoot under 1/2 inch @ 100 and average 1 inch @ 300 all day. I traded this rife off for a 25-06 just like it because I kept shooting deer right in the center of the front shoulders and they would run off out of the fields a 100 yards or so into thick cut overs that you almost needed a chain saw to cut your way through to find them. At this time I have rifles in 270 Win, 6.5X55, 308, 30X47 HBR and 25-06 set up to deer hunt with and I use them all but it has taken a few years experimenting to come up with the proper bullet powder combo with some to make them drop deer in their tracks killers. With the 25-06 and our average shot of 300 to 500 yards a 117 Sierra will drop them in their tracks 99.9% of the time.
25-06 rem thoughts
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rt2506
RT- i am envious few if any have the opprtunity to shoot that many deer. i have shot several with the 7mm rem mag 69.5 grains of H-4831 AND A 139 BTSP HORN and also 84 grains of h-870 and the 120 nosler. the deer i shot were a little bigger. and the antelope were smaller than your NC deer. the results i had were good to great. we are only talking 5 deer; two antelope and 11 elks. one antelope was 511 yards.
RT- i am envious few if any have the opprtunity to shoot that many deer. i have shot several with the 7mm rem mag 69.5 grains of H-4831 AND A 139 BTSP HORN and also 84 grains of h-870 and the 120 nosler. the deer i shot were a little bigger. and the antelope were smaller than your NC deer. the results i had were good to great. we are only talking 5 deer; two antelope and 11 elks. one antelope was 511 yards.
Yes I have truly been blessed to be able to kill that many deer. I helped my buddy control hunt a big farm in NC for 13 years and he had been doing it for 7 or 8 years before he invited me to hunt with him. The program was to take 100 deer each year for control purposes and we did. Not a bit of the meat went to waste either. We helped feed a lot of people. They stopped the program 4 years ago but now in this section they have unlimited doe permits and there are as many deer as there ever were and they are in better condition now than ever because we killed so many they were not in-breading as much. We can kill 4 buck and all the doe we want now. We are still the only ones allowed to hunt on the farm.
Dan
Member
Well in order to prove your point I believe you need to invite me up for week of hunting Ill bring a 7mag so we can compare. 
There are two powder that I have used for years IMR 4350 and H4831.
For 24 inch barrel guns for some reason 52 grs H4831 and 115 to 120 gr bullets seems to be THE LOAD.
For 26 inch barrels like my current rifle has 49 grs IMR 4350 with 115 to 120 gr bullets seems to be the ticket. For 100 gr bullets in either length barrel 54 grs IMR 4350 seems to be best. I have not tried some of the new slow burn powders because I have stock piles of the powders mentioned. One thing I have found is that in my rifle AA 4350 and IMR 4350 shoot the same or as close at two different lots of either powder can. The Nosler Ballistic Tips are very good bullets now. They were too soft when they first came out and then got too hard for a while but now they have got it right. But I get just as good of accuracy out of the Sierra bullets and they are much cheaper.
For 24 inch barrel guns for some reason 52 grs H4831 and 115 to 120 gr bullets seems to be THE LOAD.
For 26 inch barrels like my current rifle has 49 grs IMR 4350 with 115 to 120 gr bullets seems to be the ticket. For 100 gr bullets in either length barrel 54 grs IMR 4350 seems to be best. I have not tried some of the new slow burn powders because I have stock piles of the powders mentioned. One thing I have found is that in my rifle AA 4350 and IMR 4350 shoot the same or as close at two different lots of either powder can. The Nosler Ballistic Tips are very good bullets now. They were too soft when they first came out and then got too hard for a while but now they have got it right. But I get just as good of accuracy out of the Sierra bullets and they are much cheaper.
Hicks
Well-Known Member
RT, I've found your comments on this cartridge very interesting. A buddy of mine has a custom Mauser .25-06 that I can shoot dime sized groups at 100 yards with. He too loaded the 117gr Sierra GK. Not sure what the load consists of but it's listed in the Sierra book as their most accurate tested. That gun shoots so well I bought a Remington BDL in .270 that I'm going to screw a .25-'06 bbl on to this winter.
I felt the need to chime in here, and I have several questions. Why in your opinion is this cartridge as effective as you've seen? You mention that the shots you took were "through the shoulder" and that with the .25-'06 the animals dropped instantly but ran off with the 7mm RM. Would you say that the shots with the two cartridges are exactly comparable? Were bones hit buy the bullets going in, or out, or both?
I watched my GF take her first antelope at a measured 284 yards yesterday with that Mauser .25-'06 and the 117gr GK, in the Shirley Basin of Wyoming. The doe was hit behind the shoulder, and lost a rib going out in the process, but still managed to run about 100 yards before piling up. Then I watched another one get COMPLETELY flattened by a 240gr MK out of a .300 RUM at just over 300 yards with a shot that was just a bit too far back. I know Sierra says they don't recommend that bullet for hunting but WOW. The exit wound looked like a bomb blast even though a rib was hit going in. But I digress.
I once shot a buck antelope right in the middle of the front of the chest with my 8mm RM and a 200gr Partition, at maybe a touch over 200 yards. The bullet sailed completely through, front to back, and made a nice 8mm sized hole out the back end. After being hit the buck WALKED about 25 yards before LYING down. Very anti-climactic. Yet I watched my dad kill a huge dry cow elk at almost 400 yards with a .30-'06 and a 180gr GK, by taking a high shoulder/spine shot. At the shot all four of her legs splayed out and she looked like she was flattened by Mjollnir itself. Now obviously the 8mm RM is completely overkill as an antelope cartridge, and many would say that the old '06 is marginal for elk at that distance, yet the results of the two shots could not be more different.
My point is that, as we all know, there are MANY more factors to consider than cartridge selection when talking about the dynamic way in which animals react when shot. I don't mean to discount your experience, and in any case your comments have more solidly grounded my decision to make my own .25-'06.
[FONT="]Hicks [/FONT]
Hicks I really think it is the proper velocity with the proper bullet construction, other than that I can not explain it. I always try to hit shoulder bone with what ever caliber I shoot a deer with, either through both shoulders or through or exit a shoulder. This really shocks the animal and most of the time drops them. With the 117 Sierra at 3000 fps I have found that most of the time inside 200 yards it will not exit a deer if you shoot it through both shoulders. You will find the jacket of the bullet under the hide on the off shoulder. Beyond 200 yard it will come out. I can't explain my experience with the 7mm mag either. When you get to those deer that ran off and you look at the exit wounds from almost any bullet it was from golf ball to soft ball size exits and the vitals would be pulp but they still ran 100 or more yards. I have also found that the smaller the deer like most antelope don't have the resistance of body mass and a 100 gr bullet might be better for them. I have never shot antelope they don't live in my end of the country. The accuracy load for the 25-06 from the Sierra #4 edition is what I use in my rifle. 49 grs IMR 4350, AA 4350 shoots the same in my rifle, 117 Sierra Pro Hunter, CCI 250 primer, Rem case, OAL 3.150 . My 25-06 is on a 700 Rem action with a Shilen SS # 6 26 inch barrel in a H&S Precision stock with a Zeiss Deivary(SP?) 3-12X56 with a #8 cross hair. When you have your barrel put on your rifle make it at least 24 inches 26 is better. That 270 Win. is a winner with deer size game if you stay with 130 gr bullets 140's are a bit tough in our finding. I really think the reason that Sierra states that their MK bullets are not hunting bullets is because of the big military contract for sniper ammo that they have. They call the MK an open point match bullet. They state that this bullet is not designed to expand so it is OK to use in war. Those of us that have shot living flesh with them know a different story. One of my best friends did a lot of work with snipers while doing 21 years in the Marines and he says a 168 gr 30 cal. Sierra MK to the head is like shooting a water balloon. Get the picture?
Very interesting reading. I have just returned from a Wyoming antelope hunt. My wife and I both shot bucks with her 25-06. Her buck was shot at 258 yds. Mine was 486 yds. Both shots were bang/flop. I can not think of one animal that did not drop when hit with either her 25-06 or mine and we have shot quite a few deer and antelope. We used the Nosler 115 Partition and RL22. It shoots 1/2" groups at 100 yds. We used to use the 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip but this bullet was too fragile. Great for lung shots but not so good if you hit bone. You do not need a partition but I had a box when she bought her gun and they grouped so well that I did not try anything else.
I also shot a doe at 345 yds. with my Savage Target rifle in 6.5-284. I used the Sierra 142 MK. I shot her quartering away and the bullet left a bullet diameter hole going in and out. She walked about 20 yds. and I could see that she was hit. I shot again and got about a 1 1/2" exit hole. She dropped at the shot.
I just purchased a Remington 700 in .257 Weatherby and am presently working up a load. I think that the .25 caliber is about perfect for the hunting we do.
Tom
I also shot a doe at 345 yds. with my Savage Target rifle in 6.5-284. I used the Sierra 142 MK. I shot her quartering away and the bullet left a bullet diameter hole going in and out. She walked about 20 yds. and I could see that she was hit. I shot again and got about a 1 1/2" exit hole. She dropped at the shot.
I just purchased a Remington 700 in .257 Weatherby and am presently working up a load. I think that the .25 caliber is about perfect for the hunting we do.
Tom
Dan
Member
BTW my point was a 7mag is going roughly the same velocity at 100 yards as a .280 is at 20 yards, or pick any given range you want to. Or say a .280 at 100yards actually is moving faster then the 7 mag at 300.......
So to say a .280 is fine caliber but a 7 mag is not when there ballistic envolope is very nearly identical really isnt correct.
Hicks
Well-Known Member
I think the moral of this story is you want the bullet to stay in the animal, expending all it's energy. I would guess, and this is just a guess, that at 200 yards the 117gr GKs are not traveling fast enough to expand enough upon impact to slow down enough to stay in the animal. I would also guess that huge exit wounds, although impressive, show that much energy was not imparted to the animal, and that energy instead followed the bullet out.
Of course I could be blowing a bunch of smoke.
Hicks
No I think you have hit what I have been saying right on the head of the nail. For light thin skin animals I want a bullet to expand all it's energy inside the vitals. With the 117 Sierra that I described it has slowed down enough at 200 yards and beyond that it will exit through the shoulders but it has done a number on the vitals. Deer that are shot at 500 yards drop on the spot just like one shot at 100 yards. The 125 gr. 30 cal Nosler ballistic tips out of my 308 at 3000 fps act the same way as the 25 cal 117 Sierra bullets for me. I have shot between 20 and 30 deer from 25 to a little over 300 yards with the 125 Nosler 30 cal bullet and not a one has taken a step after being hit. i am going to try this bullet in my 30X47 HBR at 2850 fps this deer season to see how it does.
Tom Brush: Those 115 Nosler partitions will be a great bullet in the 257 Weatherby. Matter of fact if I could only have one bullet in 25 cal to hunt everything from Elk on down it would the 115 Nosler partition. My hunting buddy had a 257 Weatherby that was made up on a Rem 700 mag action that he had shot the barrel out after reaming out a 7mm mag to 7mm STW with a new take off SS fluted Remington sendaro (SP?) barrel that was in 25-06. He had it chambered for the 257 Weatherby. At the time H870 was about the only powder that would really make this rifle sing with the 115 Nosler partitions. He let a friend talk him out of the rifle after he had used it for 2 years. He wishes all the time that he had it back.
Tom Brush: Those 115 Nosler partitions will be a great bullet in the 257 Weatherby. Matter of fact if I could only have one bullet in 25 cal to hunt everything from Elk on down it would the 115 Nosler partition. My hunting buddy had a 257 Weatherby that was made up on a Rem 700 mag action that he had shot the barrel out after reaming out a 7mm mag to 7mm STW with a new take off SS fluted Remington sendaro (SP?) barrel that was in 25-06. He had it chambered for the 257 Weatherby. At the time H870 was about the only powder that would really make this rifle sing with the 115 Nosler partitions. He let a friend talk him out of the rifle after he had used it for 2 years. He wishes all the time that he had it back.
