1500 ft/lb energy requirement?

[idcwby]

It is my understanding that the high shoulder shot is the holy grail because it puts the animal down right where it was shot. This can be vital when shooting long range, and makes it more likely to recover the animal. The reason this shot anchors an animal, is when a bullet strike the shoulder blade, it provides enough resistance that is then transferred into the animal's spine and breaks it. Thus putting the animal down right where it was hit. This may not result in instantaneous death.

Also, you have the thoracic autonomic plexus located just forward of the scapula. This is a huge bundle of autonomic nerve fibers that control things like breathing and heart beat. If this is hit it will most likely cause instantaneous death and the animal will drop right where it was hit.

I am not advocating for any shot placement over another. I am simply sharing my understanding of why people prefer that shot.

This is an awesome article on all of these topics discussed in this thread:
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

Travis

These are good points for a shoulder shot. Another reason that shot gets taken is because of the terrain you may hunting in. Sometimes you want to drop the animal right there and breaking the shoulders is a bigger target than trying to break the neck. Getting an animal to drop in a certain spot could the the difference of a 1 day pack out or 2-3 days.

idcwby

 

[combatcurt]

Man I wish I could do that I have to wait until a barrel company builds my barrel it usually around 450-500$ a barrel

I also live 10 minutes from benchmark barrels in Washington state

 

[Christian Wiseman]

I also live 10 minutes from benchmark barrels in Washington state

Lucky closest place I know that I can get a barrel made is McGowan barrels in kallispell Montana. It's like a 7 hr drive for me. I'm in Wyoming so if you know of any barrel makers in Wyoming I'm all ears lol

 

[Hand Skills]

Everyone needs to make the decision for themselves. I have never warmed up to the shoulder shot personally. Friend of mine shot a bull elk in the scapula last fall. The bullet penetrated about 8" but experienced core jacket separation. The jacket was found on the ribs, and the bullet didn't make it into the vitals.

This is a common story, but what might suprise some; the bullet was a .338 230gr ELDX. The impact velocity was ~2500fps... (A recovery effort; the elk had already absorbed at least one 30cal a little far back.)

Breaking an elks shoulder then continuing on into the vitals has more to do with momentum vs resistance to penetration both from the frontal diameter of the bullet and the shoulder.
Energy doesn't really mean much IMO, it's a nice number to look at to compare possibilities but nothing more.
I've hit elk with 3500 ft lbs of energy in the shoulder and not had the bullet make it to the vitals, add a few hundred yards on that and it would have been much more likely to penetrate OR pull that same shot back 10 inches and it's won and done.
On the other end I've hit an elk with 1400 ft lbs of energy and blew through BOTH shoulders but the impact speed was such that the bullet momentum was able to over come the resistance because it didn't blow open wide and penetrated.
Up close I won't trust anything smaller than the heaviest 30 cal bullets to penetrate every elk shoulder into the vitals.
Hitting an elk in the shoulder is the highest percentage way to wound and loose elk, I've seen more elk recovered easier being gut shot than hit in the shoulder and not having the bullet make it into the chest.
If I get forward into the shoulder with even my 28 I just assume I'll be shooting it a second time, a good percentage will be fine but it's not as good as punching through the slats. If I were a guy who had to break the shoulders I would be only running a 338 RUM class case with 250+ he bullets with a preference to 300 gr bullets.

This is a great post. To anyone snickering, there is no hyperbole here. Shot placement is a thing - doesn't take much to punch a rib.

On the other hand I have yet to recover a 30cal 200gr nosler partition from any animal, shot anywhere (this includes a couple of stern to stem 'recovery' efforts of my own).

 

[combatcurt]

Everyone needs to make the decision for themselves. I have never warmed up to the shoulder shot personally. Friend of mine shot a bull elk in the scapula last fall. The bullet penetrated about 8" but experienced core jacket separation. The jacket was found on the ribs, and the bullet didn't make it into the vitals.

This is a common story, but what might suprise some; the bullet was a .338 225gr ELDX. The impact velocity was ~2500fps...



This is a great post. To anyone snickering, there is no hyperbole here. Shot placement is a thing.

On the other hand I have yet to recover a 30cal 200gr nosler partition from any animal, shot anywhere.

I have never seen a gut or liver shot animal get away.

 

[Hand Skills]

Define 'get away'. A few hundred yards traveled can result in a grueling recovery, or worse, a lost animal. Maybe we hunt in different places, but if I have a chance to follow up on a wounded animal, I'm going to take it. ESPECIALLY if it's my partner or client who has done the wounding!

On a long enough timeline, every set of tracks ends with a dead animal. Successful hunting means stoping those tracks. I'm not sure what your point is there!

 

[Don A Parsons]

I like the 1000 for thin skin and 1600 for the thicks.

I call it the lee-way thing,,, that way if I'm just a skit off on the shot placement ,,, """hopefuly""" the boolit has enough over run to get things done.

I still practic the close up and personal along with shot placement. Knock on plastic as things have been working gooder for many years.

The biggest challange in my life is remembering where I parked my truck in the forest. Ha

 

[HARPERC]

.....A few hundred yards traveled can result in a grueling recovery, or worse, a lost animal. Maybe we hunt in different places.......On a long enough timeline, every set of tracks ends with a dead animal. Successful hunting means stoping those tracks....

........Having hunted a few different places, absent dogs or a Kalahari Bushman, an easy recovery one place can be a lost animal elsewhere.
.......Not counting how much opportunity some terrain favors a follow up shot.

 

[combatcurt]

Define 'get away'. A few hundred yards traveled can result in a grueling recovery, or worse, a lost animal. Maybe we hunt in different places, but if I have a chance to follow up on a wounded animal, I'm going to take it. ESPECIALLY if it's my partner or client who has done the wounding!

On a long enough timeline, every set of tracks ends with a dead animal. Successful hunting means stoping those tracks. I'm not sure what your point is there!

I've never whitnessed an animal keep making tracks further than a couple hundred yards. It sucks, and if you have hunted long enough, most hunters will see this at some point. What I'm getting at, IMO, is a little far back is better than a little too far forward.

 

[Hand Skills]

should have caught that. I'm with you now!

 

[mtmuley]

I have never seen a gut or liver shot animal get away.

Yikes. mtmuley

 

[combatcurt]

Yikes. mtmuley

Yikes, yes. I've seen a couple and they don't usually get very far before they lay down. Then you have to try to get another shot so they don't die a sick, slow death. Then, gutting them out is pretty gnarly. Not to mention the years of abuse you get from your hunting partners for making a poor shot....

 

[WY02K]

""This is a great post. To anyone snickering, there is no hyperbole here. Shot placement is a thing - doesn't take much to punch a rib.""

Fully agree with this. 64 yards on a 3 yr old bull, 550 gr. arrow shattered the near side rib and cut the far side rib in half, arrow fell out the other side. For rifles ribs are a blessing, best way to get expansion on a bullet before it reaches the vitals.
I'll try to find the link to the study so you all can read it but it basically states that somewhere in the 2000-2500 fps range is when kinetic energy no longer becomes a factor, this is due to the lower threshold that hydrostatic shock will not do enough damage to soft tissues. When velocities become low enough the damage from an expanded bullet will be isolated to a small hydrostatic wound channel and whatever the bullet contacts, similar to how an arrow kills. They claim that KE is a worthless number at this point and does not apply to arrows at all. There is a spot just above the lungs and below the spine that is a terrible place to put a bullet below this velocity threshold, it will not break the spine. 864 yards on a 4yr old cow, 215 Berger at 2910 fps. She lost a lot of blood but required a follow up shot that came 30 minutes later, we were pretty freaked out over it. I thought this was a fluke until it happened on a calf at 699. Couldn't believe that it didn't break the spine, we learned a lot that day about the high lung shot and temperature sensitive powder affecting POI. I no longer look at energy numbers, only velocities.

 

[FIGJAM]

This is an interesting discussion regarding shot placement - personally, I am a behind the shoulder guy. Hit em in the lungs (which is a huge target) and they are done. I get that is is cool to watch their legs come out from under them with a high shoulder shot, but it sucks when the bullet doesn't make it to the vitals.