140gr Berger Elite Hunter issue. Anyone experience this?

[Alb Greg]

40+ years of elk hunting, I've changed the load a few times but always the same bullet 180gr Nosler Partition. Old school from an old guy.

 

[dogz]

Performed as designed.

Corectamundo not sure what the question and or concern is...........

 

[NeoConShooter]

140gr Berger elite hunter out of a 6.5prc. Hunting Cow elk but also had an either sex mule deer tag. Shot a doe at 110 yards. Perfectly through the ribs. Dropped like a stone. When I opened her up the entire internal cavity had been scrambled. Bullet came apart and the concussion combined with bullet fragments tore through the diaphragm. Gut material, plant bits and the like had sucked out the exit hole. I found gut material forced into the meat along the spine. Exit wound was the size of a quarter. Has anyone experienced this? Bullet was right behind the shoulders right through the middle. Scared to use these again if they do anything similar. Appreciate any thoughts. thanks

Try using less gun? I've killed three larger Utah elk with a .44 pistol. One shot each, the one walked less than 100 yards. The other two much less. My go to caliber is a 7.62X51 Lee Loader reload, (Free Brass), with a 150 Grain, Remington Core-Locked bullet ahead of the cheapest appropriate powder I could find. Since 1970, to 2002 when I moved back to the mid-west, it has never failed me. Because I do camp work for the friend who's guide business I support during the season, I also have a Rem-700 Sendero in .300 RUM professionally reloaded with 180 grain VLD Bergers at ~3,280 FPS to fix the client's occasional mistakes. You have to look the part if you want to look like a pro.

 

[reubenski]

I've always been confused by Berger hunting bullets and people that use them. What is the difference between their match bullets and hunting bullets? Jacket thickness? Maybe. The lead cores are not bonded to the jackets so what are we expecting them to do? If you shoot them at high enough velocity their going to grenade. Just like a match bullet. Why would anyone expect them to perform any differently than a match bullet? Maybe the jacket thickness causes a slightly exaggerated or retarded version of the other.

I do see people that want a bullet to dump all it's energy in an animal and cause as much damage as possible while other people want some form of controlled damage and penetration. So you could have some people that like hunting grenades. I personally don't like the damage to the meat. Especially on smaller animals like antelope where the tenderloins are tiny and don't even make a serving in a recipe. So you pretty much only have the 4 quarters, back strap, and maybe some neck meat. The flank meat is full of fat and doesn't cook well. So I don't even take it. When you're limited to the four quarters and back strap, why are you shooting them in the shoulders? Or high shoulder Lol. Damaging back strap and shoulder meat. Antelope aren't hard to kill. When I hunt antelope and whitetail in the east coast I pretty much just take the quarters and back strap from right where I shoot them and don't even open up the guts. No point.

After 11 years serving overseas I was able to start hunting again when I moved back to conus. I started hunting again on my father's farm and had a real nice 6.5 SAUM built when the GAP Extreme Hunters were popular. People where shooting 130gr JLKs at 2900 - 3000fps. I loaded some 7mm RSAUM brass with 130JLKs and took it whitetail hunting. It was slaughter fest. I shot one doe in the front quartering chest. The bullet traveled down the lengths of her body and blew up in the opposite rear hind quarter. Guts were a mess and the quarter was super damaged. I sold that gun and the next year used a 6 Creedmoor. I shot the Sierra 95gr TGKs at 3050fps. Shot a doe right behind the shoulder and the bullet grenaded on the ribs. The explosion blew a a silver dollar sized hole on the ribs and damaged all the inside shoulder meat in the armpit. When I had her hanging up you could see the heart hanging from it's natural connective tissues through that hole. The surface was abraded but there was no penetration. She required two shots to drop. I shot another die that same year in the head at about 60 yards. It looked like someone took an ice cream scoop and just scooped out her brains. There was a gory spray of pink brain bits in a triangle shaped spray pattern in the underbrush behind her. The same pink matter was hanging from tree branches 15 ft above where she stood. Ridiculous. So then I went to a bolt action 6.5 Grendel with 100gr Nosler BTs at 2720fps. That was perfect. Two years later I rebarreled the 6 Creedmoor to a short 6.5 Creedmoor and now use 120gr Speer Gold Dots at 2800. That is the perfect bullet and speed for killing whitetail without grenading meat unnecessarily. I'll still shoot 4 out of 5 deer in the head though. Quartering them and taking the back strap; not even messing with the guts.

Last year I shot a cow elk at 300yds right behind the shoulder. Perfect shot placement for the classic heart shot. I was shooting a 175gr ELDX out of a 7WSM at 2930. When I hit her she dropped her head and just started walking forward. The rest of the herd started moving as well. She intermixed with some other cows and then reversed direction. I hit her again on the other side in the same spot and she dropped. When I gutted her, the organs that were against the ribcage in the first side were torn up on the exterior but there was no penetration or massive mess. When we hung her up and pulled the hide off, you could see what happened. There was a two inch hole in the entrance. Right behind the shoulder, slightly higher than midway up. There was no exit from that shot. The second shot is what killed her. The first bullet hit a rib and exploded. Failed to penetrate and do damage to vital organs. Since I've switched to Barnes 168gr LRX. IMO, that's the problem with explosive bullets. You run the risk of exploding on the bone of a larger animal. On smaller deer you can assume some risk if you're bullet is large enough. (A 95gr 6mm isn't) But on a big boned animal you need the penetration that comes from a bonded core or a mono. Meat damage aside, the Berger bullets lack the penetration of a for-purpose hunting bullet that is designed for it's task by bonding the core to the jacket.

 

[marksman1941]

I've always been confused by Berger hunting bullets and people that use them. What is the difference between their match bullets and hunting bullets? Jacket thickness? Maybe. The lead cores are not bonded to the jackets so what are we expecting them to do? If you shoot them at high enough velocity their going to grenade. Just like a match bullet. Why would anyone expect them to perform any differently than a match bullet? Maybe the jacket thickness causes a slightly exaggerated or retarded version of the other.

I do see people that want a bullet to dump all it's energy in an animal and cause as much damage as possible while other people want some form of controlled damage and penetration. So you could have some people that like hunting grenades. I personally don't like the damage to the meat. Especially on smaller animals like antelope where the tenderloins are tiny and don't even make a serving in a recipe. So you pretty much only have the 4 quarters, back strap, and maybe some neck meat. The flank meat is full of fat and doesn't cook well. So I don't even take it. When you're limited to the four quarters and back strap, why are you shooting them in the shoulders? Or high shoulder Lol. Damaging back strap and shoulder meat. Antelope aren't hard to kill. When I hunt antelope and whitetail in the east coast I pretty much just take the quarters and back strap from right where I shoot them and don't even open up the guts. No point.

After 11 years serving overseas I was able to start hunting again when I moved back to conus. I started hunting again on my father's farm and had a real nice 6.5 SAUM built when the GAP Extreme Hunters were popular. People where shooting 130gr JLKs at 2900 - 3000fps. I loaded some 7mm RSAUM brass with 130JLKs and took it whitetail hunting. It was slaughter fest. I shot one doe in the front quartering chest. The bullet traveled down the lengths of her body and blew up in the opposite rear hind quarter. Guts were a mess and the quarter was super damaged. I sold that gun and the next year used a 6 Creedmoor. I shot the Sierra 95gr TGKs at 3050fps. Shot a doe right behind the shoulder and the bullet grenaded on the ribs. The explosion blew a a silver dollar sized hole on the ribs and damaged all the inside shoulder meat in the armpit. When I had her hanging up you could see the heart hanging from it's natural connective tissues through that hole. The surface was abraded but there was no penetration. She required two shots to drop. I shot another die that same year in the head at about 60 yards. It looked like someone took an ice cream scoop and just scooped out her brains. There was a gory spray of pink brain bits in a triangle shaped spray pattern in the underbrush behind her. The same pink matter was hanging from tree branches 15 ft above where she stood. Ridiculous. So then I went to a bolt action 6.5 Grendel with 100gr Nosler BTs at 2720fps. That was perfect. Two years later I rebarreled the 6 Creedmoor to a short 6.5 Creedmoor and now use 120gr Speer Gold Dots at 2800. That is the perfect bullet and speed for killing whitetail without grenading meat unnecessarily. I'll still shoot 4 out of 5 deer in the head though. Quartering them and taking the back strap; not even messing with the guts.

Last year I shot a cow elk at 300yds right behind the shoulder. Perfect shot placement for the classic heart shot. I was shooting a 175gr ELDX out of a 7WSM at 2930. When I hit her she dropped her head and just started walking forward. The rest of the herd started moving as well. She intermixed with some other cows and then reversed direction. I hit her again on the other side in the same spot and she dropped. When I gutted her, the organs that were against the ribcage in the first side were torn up on the exterior but there was no penetration or massive mess. When we hung her up and pulled the hide off, you could see what happened. There was a two inch hole in the entrance. Right behind the shoulder, slightly higher than midway up. There was no exit from that shot. The second shot is what killed her. The first bullet hit a rib and exploded. Failed to penetrate and do damage to vital organs. Since I've switched to Barnes 168gr LRX. IMO, that's the problem with explosive bullets. You run the risk of exploding on the bone of a larger animal. On smaller deer you can assume some risk if you're bullet is large enough. (A 95gr 6mm isn't) But on a big boned animal you need the penetration that comes from a bonded core or a mono. Meat damage aside, the Berger bullets lack the penetration of a for-purpose hunting bullet that is designed for it's task by bonding the core to the jacket.

I've killed a whole stack of deer with a 30 cal165 gr trophy bond at moderate (2800fps) velocity. If you hit the shoulder you lose meat, but there's never a time in which it doesn't penetrate, hold together, and destroy everything in its path. I get the fascination with bullets that dump energy hard, as folks think they don't want to lose energy with the pass through.

It always made sense to me to hedge your bets. When shooting a fragile bullet, your velocity window is often narrow for optimal performance, and god forbid you hit a bone anywhere. If you're shooting a big rifle, sometimes muzzle velocity is high enough that you can't shoot a deer inside 100 yards because MV is just too high and it'll grenade.

Pick a proper bonded bullet, and it doesn't matter how close you are or if you hit a bone; make sure you're lined up with vitals and let the bullet bore through. It just seems a lot safer bet all around

 

[fta0303]

Yeah, it had me scratching my head as I was reading it. I had just gotten out of bed and thought maybe my brain wasn't processing it correctly.

i think he's concerned with meat damage....

 

[Beluebow]

Agreed! Michael is an LRH member but has not posted for a while now. He also taught at the USAFA. He's a brilliant man.

Yup, I remember him.

 

[Nimrodmar10]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. We ask an awful lot from our bullet manufacturers. We expect them to make a bullet that expands at long range, low velocities, but doesn't over expand at short range, high velocities. Then we want the same bullet to expend most, if not all, of it's energy inside the animal, killing it without destroying too much meat. And we expect the same result at 50 yards and 800 yards.
Guys, take it from a guy that's old enough to remember when all hunting bullets were lead tipped round nose or spitzer bullets, we are now in the Golden Age of bullet manufacturing. Ther are manufacturers out there that are making bullets to fit any shooters needs. But there isn't any one bullet that fits every shooters needs. Decide what you want a bullet to do, then rsearch what bullet fits your needs the best. But don't be surprised if your 3400 fps whiz bang long range hunting gun blows the shoulder off of a 100 whitetail at 75 yards. None of the great bullet manufacturers can perform magic.

 

[born2hunt4ever]

I just recently started using berger bullets but here are my results with them.

300 Win Mag 210 Berger VLD Hunting Christensen Ridgeline Rifle MV: 3020 I have shot 4 cow elk and 1 antelope doe with this combo.

1st: 255 Yards tight to the crease middle of the body bang flop. Walked up to it started field dressing it and noticed the same thing you are describing. First animal with the berger thought it was weird wasn't ruling out one shot knowing that these bullets are known for long range hunting and 255 yards is not long range.

2nd: Two days later on a damage hunt elk 260 yards had to hold a little further back then I like due to tight shot window but confident in my rifle and load to make the shot. Touched it off and the elk hunched low and went behind some trees out of sight. The herd ran over and about 15 seconds later took off (my cow had fallen in the field out of sight). Drove up to the cow to field dress it and noticed the same exact results as two days prior. In front of the diaphragm by a large margin and still had gut matter inside of her chest cavity.

3rd: Next years season cow elk 625 yards quartered to and the only elk we saw all season so I took the shot knowing the Bergers aren't designed for hard angled shots. Hit her right on the point of the shoulder facing me and dropped her like a rock and slide down the hill until she hit the bottom. Once I got up to her noticed that I had completely shredded the in shoulder which was expected but it shredded the lungs and didn't ruin any meat on the off shoulder so I ruined one shoulder but if I had been shooting a different bullet would it have ruined both at that angle? Hard to say.

4th: Last year 200 yards broadside smoked right through the lungs blood pumping out both sides literally looked like someone had taken paint buckets and dumped them on the snow. She stumbled 25 yards in a big "J" before falling over. Lungs looked like smashed jello.

Antelope doe: 100 yards tucked right behind the shoulder I have never seen an animal act like that after hit by a bullet. All four feet went straight out and her whole body shook and she fell right over backwards with her legs straight in the air. No exit just lungs in literal soup form and no gut matter or anything.

I have two shots with my 6.5-284 and the 156 EOL traveling 2823 FPS.

Antelope buck this year shot was 240 yards. Was walking when I shot but it was a buck of a lifetime and I took the shot. Hit him further back than I wanted but was in front of diaphragm but a little higher than I wanted. Hit him high and just below the spine. Dropped in his tracks and expired within 11 seconds. I do not think these results would've happened if I was shooting bergers. Opened him up and gut matter was all over on the inside.

Mule Deer doe 455 Yards shot right behind the shoulder she nose dived down the mountain and expired within 10 seconds lungs were soup and no gut matter.

I do not know why I have had such different results but I am not ruling them out quite yet. I am a meat hunter but it is hard to beat a bullet that is so accurate. Hope this helps!

Happy hunting

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Whitetails are frail and any bullet will drop them if placed properly. I always liked an exit and shot many deer with the 160 Accubond. It was effective and reliable, day-in and day-out. However, as I increased the range at which I was hunting, I started to look for a bullet with a higher BC and one that had a reputation for accuracy and box-to-box consistency. Bergers fit that bill.

I like to hunt over soybean fields in NC. The deer eventually move out of the tree lines just before dark. They can get plenty to browse on without venturing too far from the trees. It is very beneficial to use a bullet that drops a deer "right there". Many of the tree lines conceal swamps that are full of snakes and other nasty critters. Bergers seem to have more DRT kills than most other bullets, although I've also had good luck with the older Hornady A-Max bullets.

For these reasons ^^^^^^^ I'm hunting with all Bergers. We'll see how it goes and reevaluate for next year.

Good luck hunting to all my forum buddies here on LRH.

 

[Taj]

… are you arguing that hydrostatic shock doesn't exist?

I don't think he saying that, he is just saying that it is not the mechanism that does the job. It's either a CNS or hypovolemic (blood loss) shock that does the work.

 

[CTK]

I heart/lung shot a Whitetail buck a couple of years ago at 330y with a 175 Berger Elite Hunter 7mm (280ai). It simply collapsed on the spot. Not a bunch of internal damage. Most deer with this shot placement and different bullets have run 50 or so yards for me in past. Same year I shot a Mule Deer buck at 150ish with same gun and bullet. Was front quartering shot. Deer ran maybe 15 yards and looked like a bomb had gone off in it. I shot a large Whitetail buck in the trees with a 130 Berger VLD Hunting 6.5mm (6.5x47) at 50 yards. Hit it high shoulder and it ran. Had to put another in it as I found it scooting along the ground with just a broken shoulder. The terminal performance of Berger Bullets is somewhat of a mystery to me. My limited experience shows that, as advertised, they are long range hunting bullets.

 

[Navaluk]

First, you made the gut shot not the bullet. Second, switch bullets. That is why so many types of bullets and rifles exist.

 

[meatyrem]

Yes same thing here! I used the VLD's out of my 6.5-300 weatherby, Shot a cow elk the same occurred. We call them Berger Bombs we all stopped using them! Shoot great but total destruction!

Then again. If they made a bonded version imo would be better.