With or without a séance?
12GA Rounds for Grizz?
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comfisherman
Well-Known Member
Whole new meaning to " ghost gun ". Need one for blasking the ghost bears...
A non-issue. Tungsten buckshot for head shots in self defense. My pattern is ~8", even at 30yds. Tungsten patterns twice as tight as lead. Is 62% denser than lead. No comparison!
Here's a really great story of a pastor/hunter in Montana that killed a 400 lb grizzly with a 10mm. Not sure if it has been posted before. Although he killed it before it killed him, the 10mm doesn't really inspire confidence. It is a long video (55 minute interview), but really fascinating to listen to. It is a great story, particularly if you are a Christian and you rely on God to guide you in life.
GRIZZLY SURVIVOR: A Providence Story
I think I'd rather use a 45-70, e.g. new Marlin 1895 trapper with a 16" barrel. Load it with with 405 grain hard cast bullets at around 1,400 fps. Short range weapon, and not loaded too hot to affect follow up shots. It also has a short overall length, light, and handy to carry.
A 12 gauge with hot loaded Brenneke slugs has a lot of recoil. That is tough to manage. Chuck Hawks recoil table shows 18.7 lbs of recoil energy with a 7.5 lb 45-70 firing 405 gr hard cast at 1,330 fps. A 12 gauge firing those Brennekes would be in the neighborhood of 30-40 lbs with a shotgun of the same weight.
GRIZZLY SURVIVOR: A Providence Story
I think I'd rather use a 45-70, e.g. new Marlin 1895 trapper with a 16" barrel. Load it with with 405 grain hard cast bullets at around 1,400 fps. Short range weapon, and not loaded too hot to affect follow up shots. It also has a short overall length, light, and handy to carry.
A 12 gauge with hot loaded Brenneke slugs has a lot of recoil. That is tough to manage. Chuck Hawks recoil table shows 18.7 lbs of recoil energy with a 7.5 lb 45-70 firing 405 gr hard cast at 1,330 fps. A 12 gauge firing those Brennekes would be in the neighborhood of 30-40 lbs with a shotgun of the same weight.
As a follow-up comment, I read on another forum about John Linebaugh and his response to what he would do if a grizzly charged. Not sure this was accurately reported, but I find it funny anyway:
One time at a shoot a guy asked John Linebaugh how he'd deal with a situation where he heard the noise and turned to see a grizzly charging him a few feet away. As usual John had his brass frame .500 on at the time the guy asked. John just looked at him and said "I don't really know pard. I'd like to think I'd draw down on him like John Wayne with the .50 but it's probly more likely I'd just s**t my pants right before it ate me."
I think that is the truth right there. We don't know how we would handle such a situation, and can only hope God is overseeing it at the time and guiding our actions.
One time at a shoot a guy asked John Linebaugh how he'd deal with a situation where he heard the noise and turned to see a grizzly charging him a few feet away. As usual John had his brass frame .500 on at the time the guy asked. John just looked at him and said "I don't really know pard. I'd like to think I'd draw down on him like John Wayne with the .50 but it's probly more likely I'd just s**t my pants right before it ate me."
I think that is the truth right there. We don't know how we would handle such a situation, and can only hope God is overseeing it at the time and guiding our actions.
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comfisherman
Well-Known Member
62% denser, do they keep similar pellet diameter and pellet count? Isn't 00 like 50 ish grains already? That could make a real option
My wife's 4570 was always loaded with 350 grain north fork bullets I think max load for the 1895 was upper 1700s maybe broke intob1800fps. Recoil was fairly stout, mid 20s if memory serves me, it was the stoutest load she tolerated in small volume at the range. So it's a closer gap in the recoil front, that swanky brenneke is 600 grains at 1500 but I'm guessing not 1500 in an 18.5 inch barrel.
One of my guys showed up with a 1301 a couple years back as most of the boat guns are beat up rust bloomed 870s mossy 500s and somewhere an old 835 is rolling around. After several hundred rounds over several years, I'll own one before the end of the year. The gas system soaks up a shockingly large amount of recoil and the rate of fire is a real factor. I'll not trade my 375 in just yet, but a slug rigged 1301 will be in the safe/truck/boat from here on out.
Maybe we should start a separate thread, but especially on this thread, I'm reading about all kinds of deeply penetrating loads. On the one hand, I agree, but I don't care how deeply it penetrates, if it doesn't hit something vital, you're lunch. Now I have a 45 Raptor on a AR-10 platform, 16" barrel, which will take 5, 10, and 20 round mags. I bought three variations of ammo from Buffalo Bore, one is a 360 grain HC flat nose, but in testing, I hunt with either 220 grain Underwood extreme hunter, or the 245 grain extreme penetrator. Both use a fluted nose to create a fluid shock, basically dumping all the bullet's energy inside the victim. Mention hammer bullets on this forum, and tons will give you a thumbs up. I was sighting in the Raptor, target on an ash tree, about 11" in diameter. Bullets went through the tree....Every Single One, but I have also seem the near explosive damage when fluid is part of the mix. I've hunted deer all my life, and where I live, only recently were rifles allowed, so the majority were taken with shotgun, and Brenneke slugs. I have twice dropped one in it's tracks by making a neck/spine shot. All the rest went at least 40 yards after putting a 12 gauge slug threw both lungs and clipping the heart. Deep penetration, yes. So explain how the deer in the below hunt just dropped with a poor shot, but using a fluid shock bullet? About the two minute mark, I have slowed it down and expanded it as much as I could, but it's not a good shot.
The bullets are made by Lehigh Defense. And their controlled chaos rounds are very similar to hammer bullets
DarryH
Well-Known Member
slug, slug, slug, slug, slug !!!! Forget buckshot exist !!!
Yes. Lead weighs 11g/cc. The tungsten (TSS) buckshot pellets I load weigh 18g/cc. So actually 63.6% denser than lead.
TSS pellets don't deform like lead buckshot pellets do in the wad column during ignition. They remain perfectly round during launch, so they pattern very tightly. They also won't deform upon hitting bone, like lead buckshot pellets will. So they penetrate deeply.
The big drawback to TSS buckshot? I'm not aware of anyone loading it in factory shotshells. I have to purchase the TSS pellets and reload my own shells. TSS buckshot size pellets can be purchased in all the different sizes that lead buckshot is made. I load 9 pellets of TSS #1 buck, with one pellet 0000 TSS. The #1 buck TSS pellets weigh 64gr, whereas lead 00 buckshot weighs 52.3gr. A single TSS 0000 weighs 128.1gr.
I don't recommend TSS buckshot for body shots. Although they'll penetrate deeply, they don't cause as much trauma in muscle as lead buckshot, because they remain perfectly spherical. Like shooting an animal with FMJ rifle bullets. Deep penetration, but little tissue damage.
I do like TSS buckshot loads for close range head shots - bear defense. I generally carry TSS buckshot in the 12ga chamber for my first shot. Then Brenneke slugs in the magazine. I fully expect any bear headshot with TSS buckshot will drop at the shot. Even out at 30yds. Once you see how tight the TSS buckshot patterns, it's easier to understand. Penetration is unreal.
Here's a chart that compares TSS buckshot sizes/weights to lead buckshot pellets:
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I'll vouch for a 300 wby mag at spitting distance in the mouth of a black bear! Very effective at stopping the bear! All teeth blown out bottom jaw blown out and a hole coming out the base of the skull the size of a baseball. Completely debilitating to her but she was very much still alive. Took another round to shut her down completely. Remember that anyone that puts their full faith in a semi auto handgun!!!! Sad thing was her skull would have been B&C but the shock wave fractured it bad enough it crumbled trying to clean and bleach the taxidermist said any how!
memtb
Well-Known Member
If you can make a close range head shot with your shotgun, then you can make the same shot with the slug! At close range, the shot pattern will not be a great deal larger, if any, than the bore diameter! memtb
This is correct, the shot (lead) has a dispersion rate of about 1" inch per yard. Cheers
I can kill a bear with TSS buckshot at distances such that if I'm off 4-5" dead center, the bear still dies. Doesn't require the precise placement of a single projectile. 30 yds, dead bear with TSS buckshot thru the brain. TSS buckshot pattern at 25-30yds be ~8-10" diameter circle. Provides a little forgiveness in case I'm messing my britches and get a rough trigger pull.
