12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

[hubel458]

Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.

CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
thicker and stronger our case is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.


5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
smooth bores.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
to get everything real fancy.

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shotgun pressures.

More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots.
1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
if you want hairy load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed

 

[theflyonthewall]

Have you guys ever necked one of these cases down to ......say......458 so that you could use jacketed bullets with higher B.C.'s?

 

[hubel458]

There are guys who have necked bmg to 458 and416, which is the same
brass and base size as our cases we made from bmg brass.
I think Barrett and others have done that years ago. Others
made a 50cal from 20mm necked down and some were shortened,
some were full length. Latter for testing armor.

We can get as much speed by putting jacketed pointed bullets,
in 12ga sabots and shoot in rifled barrels. One is pictured above.Ed

 

[theflyonthewall]

Yeah I forgot about the sabot.

What's the longest range that you've done accuracy testing with the sabot loads?

 

[hubel458]

Me only 50 yds. Only with blunt bullets.
I'm so busy with chrono, research, and building
my own stuff, no time for much range testing.

Others with factory sabots and sabots they test
loads with hunting bullets, at 100-150 -yds,

One guy who experimented a lot, 200 yds
with hunting bullets about 6" group.
And he got deer at 230 yds.

With say a long 50cal pointed bullet and good CCS
sabot you might do 400 yds ok. The sabots are the
critical part and only ones for reloaders and super good are CCS.
They cost quite a bit, being handmade. Ed

 

[hubel458]

Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed

 

[hubel458]

What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
isn't super new or completely novel, most just
modernizing and improving older ideas..

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.

Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed

 

[theflyonthewall]

I don't know if I could be talked into shooting that 2-bore unless it weight 30 lbs....lol.

Great pictures! I love old pictures, whether they be from catalogs or photography of places and people. Thanks for posting those!

 

[hubel458]

The 2bore we plan on will be almost 30lbs.

Some more stuff from the old days---
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
These guns had short section of rifling at the end
of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.


Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
guns on Youtube.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
for the 4bore doubles he built.

And more from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed

 

[LouBoyd]

Have you guys ever necked one of these cases down to ......say......458 so that you could use jacketed bullets with higher B.C.'s?

You could, but you can just buy a 460 Steyr or 416 Barrett instead. Both are the 50 BMG cartridge shortened and necked down. Factory ammo is available.

 

[theflyonthewall]

Ahhh ok. I should have thought of that I guess....lol.

 

[hubel458]

Some more slug experimenting and developement.
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
These slugs have real good shoulder step to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
Picture #2


Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
fair accuracy in smooth bores.

A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed

 

[hubel458]

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs...

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders...

Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped
behind press base in picture...Ed