1000 yds...Next step?

[WildRose]

... .
And no two cases are exactly the same, either. Both chambers and cases are a tiny bit out of round.

Which is why neck sizing only is the preferred method for the most successful long range/precision shooters. Once a case has been fired, it fits the chamber perfectly, or at least far better than a new case or full resized case.

It may not align the bullett any better with the center of the bore, but it does give you a much more consistent starting point.

 

[Bart B]

Which is why neck sizing only is the preferred method for the most successful long range/precision shooters. Once a case has been fired, it fits the chamber perfectly, or at least far better than a new case or full resized case. It may not align the bullett any better with the center of the bore, but it does give you a much more consistent starting point.

You need to get in touch with the folks listed in the NRA web site's Records 600 and 1000 yard pages in the High Power Rifle section and ask them how they size their fired cases. Their shoulder fired rifles shoot just as accurate (and sometimes better than) as the long range benchrest folks do. Too bad they don't shoot as accurate fired hand held off ones shoulder than in free recoil like machine rests or benchresters do, but such is life.

I've shot test groups at 1000 with full length sized as well as brand new cases in SAAMI spec'd chambers that's smaller than current long range benchrest records. The agg of those six 5-shot groups smaller than any six 5-shot 1000 yard benchrest agg record. Agg's are the best measure of accuracy one can count on; smallest 5- or 10-shot groups are mostly luck as all the others are much larger.

There's a picture in a 1991 fall issue of Handloader magazine of a 600-yard 20-shot group fired with new .308 Win. cases in a SAAMI spec chamber. That groups about 2.7 inches. How many benchrest rifles do that well for 20 consecutive shots at 600 yards? That's a 5-shot group average of about 1.8 inches.

Check out the following: Speedy's 6PPC -- The Art of Accuracy then go to the part starting out with: Most top 6PPC competitors run their ammo at pretty high pressures. Such pressures demand that cases be full-length sized each time they are loaded.

 

[WildRose]

You need to get in touch with the folks listed in the NRA web site's Records 600 and 1000 yard pages in the High Power Rifle section and ask them how they size their fired cases. Their shoulder fired rifles shoot just as accurate (and sometimes better than) as the long range benchrest folks do. Too bad they don't shoot as accurate fired hand held off ones shoulder than in free recoil like machine rests or benchresters do, but such is life.

I've shot test groups at 1000 with full length sized as well as brand new cases in SAAMI spec'd chambers that's smaller than current long range benchrest records. The agg of those six 5-shot groups smaller than any six 5-shot 1000 yard benchrest agg record. Agg's are the best measure of accuracy one can count on; smallest 5- or 10-shot groups are mostly luck as all the others are much larger.

There's a picture in a 1991 fall issue of Handloader magazine of a 600-yard 20-shot group fired with new .308 Win. cases in a SAAMI spec chamber. That groups about 2.7 inches. How many benchrest rifles do that well for 20 consecutive shots at 600 yards? That's a 5-shot group average of about 1.8 inches.

Check out the following: Speedy's 6PPC -- The Art of Accuracy then go to the part starting out with: Most top 6PPC competitors run their ammo at pretty high pressures. Such pressures demand that cases be full-length sized each time they are loaded.

No, I really don't need to get in touch with anyone.

Anomalies do not set the standards for all.

Varmint Al's Handloading/Reloading Page

NECK SIZING.... I achieve better accuracy and case life by only neck sizing my brass instead of full length resizing for each reload. I usually buy the 3 die sets that have a Full Length, Neck Size, and Seating die. Fire-forming your brass customizes it for your rifle. When you fire a round in your rifle, the brass expands to fit your chamber. Then when the pressure is relieved, it springs back elastically a small amount and is then customized to fit your chamber. From then on, if you only neck size, about 3/4 or so of the neck, the reloads will fit your chamber much better than new brass. Usually 3/4's or so of the neck gripping the bullet is sufficient to hold the bullet in place, especially if you shoot varmints and load one round at a time. If you don't have the neck sizing die, you can do almost the same thing with your full length die. Set the die so only about 1/2 of the neck is resized. Because of the tapered case, very little full length resizing will occur. Jim Herbold had a good idea. Leave your Full Length die set for full length sizing and use the 357 Magnum to .38 Special spacer ring to back off the die for neck sizing. One disadvantage is when you only neck size, you cannot mix the ammo between rifles of the same caliber. Also, for your hunting ammo, you should safely, try each round in your rifle to make sure the bolt closes easily on it. For big game or dangerous game it may be safer to take the reduced accuracy and full length resize all your brass.

Internal Ballistics - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Let's examine the process of neck sizing to see what advantages it affords. Most cases can be neck sized in a normal full length die just by unscrewing it slightly, though a proper neck sizing die is preferred. Since the body of the case will not be worked in the die, it is not necessary to lubricate the full case. It is necessary only to dip the neck lightly in a dry lubricant, such as powdered graphite, to prepare for the resizing operation. A new primer, some new powder, and a new bullet get the case ready for reuse.
Though some rifles deliver their best groups when full length resized, neck sizing alone usually promotes better accuracy, because when our reloaded cartridge is returned to the chamber it is almost a perfect fit; headspace is just right with all cases, whether rimmed, belted, or rimless; and most helpfully of all, the new bullet is almost perfectly aligned with the bore.

exterior ballistics

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Neck Sizing[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Neck sizing is a popular technique among accuracy-minded reloaders and frequently an effective way to improve accuracy. In essence, it amounts to sizing only the neck portion of the case while leaving the remainder of the shoulder and body untouched. This provides that "custom-fit" of the brass to chamber that so many shooters are working toward.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I have heard that case neck sizing was more accurate than full sizing. In fact, Lee Precision's guarantee statement for their neck sizing dies is the "Smallest group size or your money back." Another thing that I have heard recommended is to deburr the flash hole. What I started to wonder about is just how much more accurate these steps make your shots. I looked in the three reloading manuals that I have and on the internet, but could not find any report of how much more accurate these methods are. I decided to run my own test. The 100 yard group size test results are below followed by my explanation of the testing and at the end a conclusion.
7 Shots each fired with the below case preparations.
Projected Ranking
.223 Load A
.308 Load B
.308 Load C
Full Sized
4
4.38"
2.00"
2.88"
Full Size and deburr flash hole
3
3.06"
3.75"
2.38"
Neck sized
2
3.50"
3.38"
2.63"
Neck size and deburr flash hole
1
3.00"
1.38"
1.88"
Improvement %

32%
31%
35%

Case Neck vs. Full Length Resizing

My own experience showed similar results. As a result I'll neck size only usually for about 3-5 trips through the press and then full length resize on the next round.
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[RockyMtnMT]

Which is why neck sizing only is the preferred method for the most successful long range/precision shooters. Once a case has been fired, it fits the chamber perfectly, or at least far better than a new case or full resized case.

It may not align the bullett any better with the center of the bore, but it does give you a much more consistent starting point.

Wouldn't you have to know the orrientation of the case (top) and feed it into the chamber exactly the same each time in order to match your chamber inconsistancy? Seems to me that this would be the only way to get more consistancy out of neck sizing.

Steve

 

[WildRose]

Wouldn't you have to know the orrientation of the case (top) and feed it into the chamber exactly the same each time in order to match your chamber inconsistancy? Seems to me that this would be the only way to get more consistancy out of neck sizing.

Steve

That would make sense but it doesn't seem to work out that way.

If it was a matter of trying to get the bullett in the exact same alignment with the center of the bore each time that would certainly be the case though.

I suppose one could put an index mark on each case and the reciever and try it to see if it made any difference... .

 

[Bart B]

If it was a matter of trying to get the bullett in the exact same alignment with the center of the bore each time that would certainly be the case though.

If one knows how to measure the case neck/bullet alignment with the bore with both sizing methods and can do it, they'll see the difference. I've done it and I was surprised but the proof's in the pudding (measurement?). Has anybody out there actually measured how both sizing methods position case necks in the chamber relative to the bore axis? If not, then I think you're guessing and/or assuming. I guess and assumed years ago, then a 'smith showed me how to actually measure it.

That link to all the comparisons between full length and neck only is easily trumped by Sierra Bullets decades old sizing of all their cases used to test their bullets for accuracy in super accurate rail guns. They only properly full length size. Thousands of rounds every year in all calibers. That aside, I know that if a fired case shoulder's set back too far and the neck's bent by an expander ball, such techniques for full length sizing will give way to neck only. One should set shoulders back no more than 2 thousandths and use bushing dies a couple thosandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters. What the details are of those tests are not known, so such comparisons are meaningless.

 

[WildRose]

If one knows how to measure the case neck/bullet alignment with the bore with both sizing methods and can do it, they'll see the difference. I've done it and I was surprised but the proof's in the pudding (measurement?).

That link to all the comparisons between full length and neck only is easily trumped by Sierra Bullets decades old sizing of all their cases used to test their bullets for accuracy in super accurate rail guns. They only properly full length size. Thousands of rounds every year in all calibers.

I don't suppose you have a link to Sierra publishing anything to that effect?

There's a huge volume of published pieces to the contrary.

 

[Bart B]

On my comment about Sierra's full length sizing:

I don't suppose you have a link to Sierra publishing anything to that effect? There's a huge volume of published pieces to the contrary.

You'll feel better about what they say by calling their Tech Support line (1.800.223.8799) than asking them directly. Rich Macholz is a good one and can also be emailed at [email protected]. They have published that info in some of their loading manuals. Their first ballistic tech (Martin Hull) was the one who convinced me to full length size my cases.

If one actually counts the numbers, there's super huge volumes of published pieces to the contrary. Virtually all by folks using improper handloading and testing techniques.

 

[WildRose]

On my comment about Sierra's full length sizing:
You'll feel better about what they say by calling their Tech Support line (1.800.223.8799) than asking them directly. Rich Macholz is a good one and can also be emailed at [email protected]. They have published that info in some of their loading manuals. Their first ballistic tech (Martin Hull) was the one who convinced me to full length size my cases.

If one actually counts the numbers, there's super huge volumes of published pieces to the contrary. Virtually all by folks using improper handloading and testing techniques.

Yep, I'm sure those guys at Hornady who have been reloading for decades longer than we've been around are using improper loading techniques... .lightbulb

If optimum accuracy and prolonged case life are important to the reloader, our advice is to neck size alone whenever practical. There are of course, situations in which it is advisable to full length resize. Shooters reloading for pumps, lever-actions, and autoloaders must do so to facilitate reliable chambering. A lever-action, for example, doesn't have the powerful camming action of a bolt action and may not easily chamber cases larger than factory standards. Shooters who reload cases from one bolt action for another will also find it necessary to full length resize. Even shooters reloading for one bolt action will occasionally need to full length resize for the sake of easy clearance; over repeated firings the case may conform more and more tightly to chamber dimensions, making chambering and extraction increasingly difficult.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal

 

[WildRose]

On my comment about Sierra's full length sizing:
You'll feel better about what they say by calling their Tech Support line (1.800.223.8799) than asking them directly. Rich Macholz is a good one and can also be emailed at [email protected]. They have published that info in some of their loading manuals. Their first ballistic tech (Martin Hull) was the one who convinced me to full length size my cases.

If one actually counts the numbers, there's super huge volumes of published pieces to the contrary. Virtually all by folks using improper handloading and testing techniques.

You know a funny thing happened on the way to the truth.

I picked up the phone and after a considerable wait on hold spoke with Phillip.

He personally uses the exact same method I do of neck sizing only using a full length die, measuring to the point of bumping the shoulder, and then backing off a hair.

That is what he does, and what he recommends.

It seems therefore that he agrees with the bulk of the rest of the other experts in reloading with an eye towards precision vs just cranking out large volumes of reloads.

Now unless you can point me to via linkage to something new that Sierra is publishing on the subject I'm pretty much done here.

 

[Bart B]

I picked up the phone and after a considerable wait on hold spoke with Phillip.

He personally uses the exact same method I do of neck sizing only using a full length die, measuring to the point of bumping the shoulder, and then backing off a hair.

That is what he does, and what he recommends.

I too, called Sierra. The man I talked with said they're still full length sizing all their fired cases with Redding full bushing dies reducing body diameters a little bit and setting shoulders back a thousandth or so. Their bushings are a couple thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter.

I think that what Philip meant by recommending using a full length die to bump the shoulder back then backing off a hair was to set the die such that the fired case shoulder is set back only a tiny bit. Such methods size the body down a couple thousandths, too. That's full length sizing because all three surfaces get moved; body diameter, shoulder distance from case head and neck diameter, not much but just enough.

Philip was the person I talked with and he agreed that their process is full length sizing of fired cases and is what he prefers to do.

I'd like to know how much your fired case bodies are reduced in diameter and shoulders are set back (if at all) using your full length sizing die in the process you call neck sizing only. In the reloading industry, if only the body and neck diameter are reduced and the shoulder moves forward a bit (which is common with this procedure), that's called partial neck sizing.

 

[WildRose]

I too, called Sierra. The man I talked with said they're still full length sizing all their fired cases with Redding full bushing dies reducing body diameters a little bit and setting shoulders back a thousandth or so. Their bushings are a couple thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter.

I think that what Philip meant by recommending using a full length die to bump the shoulder back then backing off a hair was to set the die such that the fired case shoulder is set back only a tiny bit. Such methods size the body down a couple thousandths, too. That's full length sizing because all three surfaces get moved; body diameter, shoulder distance from case head and neck diameter, not much but just enough.

Philip was the person I talked with and he agreed that their process is full length sizing of fired cases and is what he prefers to do.

I'd like to know how much your fired case bodies are reduced in diameter and shoulders are set back (if at all) using your full length sizing die in the process you call neck sizing only. In the reloading industry, if only the body and neck diameter are reduced and the shoulder moves forward a bit (which is common with this procedure), that's called partial neck sizing.

No, in this procedure you are not partially resizing the body unless you are working with a caliber that has a straight case from the base to the shoulder. When you set the die such that it just bumps the shoulder and then back it off, you stop before reaching the shoulder at all.

When the neck length grows beyond spec, I'll set the die down to bump and then turn it down another .003, work the cases, which would essentially be partial full length resizing, and then trim all the cases about .001 shorter than spec.

Once I have a load that I like I'll load up couple or three hundred of them, and no more than I shoot these days that'll last me a couple of years for all of my long range guns other than the varmint rifles which for now I'm just shooting factory loads in and saving up brass. That way when I do load again, it'll all be the same lot numbers of powders, bullets, and even primers in most cases.

 

[backwoods83]

When bullet manufacturers want to test the accuracy of their "bullet" it makes sense to size the whole case, they aren't always load testing, just bullet testing. If you or the gunsmith you use are competent, and use good tooling, setup properly, (no dull reamers, loose pilots, chatter) there should be no inconsistencies in your chamber period, if there are you should pick up on them after a couple firings and fix it. Obviously the reamer cuts evenly as it rotates 160-240 rpms. So as I said, when a round is fired it is molded to your chamber, no need to change the case demensions back until it won't fit at all, I have had weatherby cases that I have loosened the primer pockets in with 8 or 9 loads and never had to move the shoulder. If you want them to chamber easier fl them, neither way is incorrect. Personally I don't like to work harden my brass because I will have to anneal it more often. Everyone has a preference or opinion, no need to start bickering.

 

[WildRose]

When bullet manufacturers want to test the accuracy of their "bullet" it makes sense to size the whole case, they aren't always load testing, just bullet testing. If you or the gunsmith you use are competent, and use good tooling, setup properly, (no dull reamers, loose pilots, chatter) there should be no inconsistencies in your chamber period, if there are you should pick up on them after a couple firings and fix it. Obviously the reamer cuts evenly as it rotates 160-240 rpms. So as I said, when a round is fired it is molded to your chamber, no need to change the case demensions back until it won't fit at all, I have had weatherby cases that I have loosened the primer pockets in with 8 or 9 loads and never had to move the shoulder. If you want them to chamber easier fl them, neither way is incorrect. Personally I don't like to work harden my brass because I will have to anneal it more often. Everyone has a preference or opinion, no need to start bickering.

They are also testing loads designed to perform in all sorts of rifles from sloppy cheap factory guns with **** poor tolerances all the way to very nice custom rigs with very stringent QC standards for their tolerances.

They pretty much state the same in one way or another in every reloading manual I've ever owned.