1000 yds...Next step?

[backwoods83]

With everything I own that's capable of 600yrds and farther I do not like to have more than 1" of vertical at 600, so if I shoot 5 shots and 3 are side by side, 1 is a half inch low and the last is a half inch higher than the rest its acceptable. Although sometimes the rifle itself isn't capable.

 

[wisdeerkiller]

I would work on your reloading part. i agree about the velocity be off. get a good scale like a RCBS scale that is about $90. Neck size only. helps alot and helps your brass last longer.

What is your twist rate? if its 1 in 12 stay under 175gr better at 168gr. if you go higher then that you can have an un stable bullet.

Also if you reload shotgun or know someone that does grab a shot bag (empty of course) and fill it with sand. Works great for a rest.

Another problem i recently found out is parallax. If you have it. Adjust your focus till you see the crosshairs clear then make sure the target is clear with your parallax. and keep adjusting these until your crosshair does not move when you move your head and not the gun. Kinda like keeping the same anchor point bowhunting.

 

[Bart B]

Shooting great groups or scores at 1000 yards with bullets in the 147 to 155 grain weight from a .308 Win.'s been done for decades around the world. But one needs a barrel long enough to get at least 2950 fps with them else they may go subsonic before reaching 1000 yards.

Great Britian's full bore as well as the USA Palma match competitors have been doing this with Sierra 155's since the early 1990's. And the Brits and their commonwealth country's long range competitors have been doing it for several decades with their arsenal's 147 grain bullet. Ballistic coefficient's not nearly as important as accuracy anyway. Top level competitors will pick ammo that's 20% more accurate than stuff that drifts 20% less. They can correct for the wind as it changes, but they can't correct for accuracy.

Sierra and Berger both make light weight bullets that'll shoot under 7 inches all day long from properly done full length sizing; neck only sizing's not all that great. Even the benchresters started moving away from neck only sizing years ago. Brand spankin' new cases can shoot 7 inches at 1000 yards; believe it or not.

Sierra's 30 caliber 168 HPMK's never done well in the .308 for long range. You'll need to shoot them out at 2800 fps to stay supersonic through 1000 yards. That won't happen with your 24 inch barrel. The US military learned that shortly after introducing 7.62 NATO match ammo with that bullet in the 1980's which is why they replaced that bullet with 175's. Sierra's 175's have a better shaped boattail for long range use than their 168 which was originally intended for use at 300 meters.

Your rifle's got a 1:10 twist in its 24-inch barrel. The best bullet for long range accuracy in it is probably Sierra's 200 grain HPMK. It's twist is a bit too fast for lighter bullets if best accuracy's the objective. Handload 48 grains of IMR4350 under that bullet and it'll probably knock your socks off. Second choice would be Sierra's 190 grain HPMK with 41 grains of IMR4064 under it. Use Wolff standard primers in the case of your choice but you may want to start a few grains under then work up.

 

[Decay]

Thanks everyone!

It sounds like i need to get some heavier bullets and a chronograph to check for consistent velocities.

Bart B mentioned using 2 types of powders. I have tried imr4895 imr3031 and varget so far. are there any generalizations to what poweders to use in certain situations (ie X powder with heavy bullets, X powder with shorter barrels, etc)?

 

[backwoods83]

The throat length in the savages isn't long enough for 200grn SMKs, your best bet is the new 185grn berger OTM with Varget, 4064, or RE15, and Fed210Ms or BR2s. Neck sizing does not hurt accuracy and extends brass life, so does annealing but that's a whole new topic.

 

[Bart B]

Thanks everyone!
It sounds like i need to get some heavier bullets and a chronograph to check for consistent velocities.
Bart B mentioned using 2 types of powders. I have tried imr4895 imr3031 and varget so far. are there any generalizations to what poweders to use in certain situations (ie X powder with heavy bullets, X powder with shorter barrels, etc)?

The .308's track record in competition's been with Varget and IMR4895 with 155's. IMR4064 for bullets from 160 up to 190 grains and IMR4350 with 200 up through 250. The US Army Rifle Team used IMR3031 with Sierra 168's for a while but it shot no better than IMR4064 and it was a lot dirtier; barrels had to be cleaned more often. Barrel lengths don't seem to matter; accuracy's been equal with lengths from 22 to 28 inches as long as the muzzle velocity's high enough for the distance shot at. For example, Federal's .308 Win. match ammo with 168 HPMK's shot equally well from 22 inch M14/M1A barrels, 24 inch Garand barrels and 24 or 26 inch bolt action match rifle barrels; under 4 inches at 600 yards in properly built rifles.

I don't think you'll need a chronograph to check you loads' muzzle velocity. Use what I suggested but start a couple grains under and watch pressure. The lot of primers will probably be the biggest variable in accuracy. I suggest the Wolff large rifle ones as they're a favorite in competition 'cause they typically produce the best accuracy and have little lot to lot differences.

 

[Bart B]

The throat length in the savages isn't long enough for 200grn SMKs, your best bet is the new 185grn berger OTM with Varget, 4064, or RE15, and Fed210Ms or BR2s. Neck sizing does not hurt accuracy and extends brass life, so does annealing but that's a whole new topic.

I and others have shot Sierra 200 HPMK's in SAAMI spec .308 Win. chambers and they do just fine. Watched a guy in 1997 break the 600 yard prone record with aperture sights putting 19 of 'em inside 4 inches at 600 yards from prone; one just barely went outside that. All from a SAAMI spec chamber with Rem. BR .308 cases with Rem. 7.5 primers and 48 grains of IMR4350.

Folks have got several dozen reloads on .308 cases properly full length sizing them. Most I've got was 47 and a friend nearby got 57; all with normal max loads. No annealing was done whatsoever. You just need to size fired case body diameters down no more than 2 thousandths and set the case shoulder back the same amount. The die's neck needs to be about 2 thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. .308 fired cases so sized has shot test groups at 600 yards smaller than current benchrest records; from pre-'64 classic box magazine Win. 70 based rifles at that. Benchresters today are doing the same dimensional changes with the popular 6mm cases they full length size, but reduce body diameters and set shoulders back only about 1 thousandths.

If neck only sizing doesn't hurt accuracy, why have the best scores and records set in high power match rifle competition been done with full length sized cases? Would the benchresters have switched over to full length sizing if it didn't produce better accuracy?

 

[backwoods83]

That's funny I shoot with and am friends with several 1k IBS and I can't say that I know a single one that bumps the shoulder until it will not chamber properly. And the 600 yard benchrest record is .885" 5 shot, I can't see a 308 breaking that. And if you do not own a savage like he speaks of, as I do, don't argue, the throat is shorter than the Rem 700 and Win 70s. FL or necksize doesn't matter, that's why you can check runout.

 

[Bart B]

That's funny I shoot with and am friends with several 1k IBS and I can't say that I know a single one that bumps the shoulder until it will not chamber properly. And the 600 yard benchrest record is .885" 5 shot, I can't see a 308 breaking that. And if you do not own a savage like he speaks of, as I do, don't argue, the throat is shorter than the Rem 700 and Win 70s. FL or necksize doesn't matter, that's why you can check runout.

First off, I'm surprised that Savage chambered that barrel with such a short throat. They're not using SAAMI specs for their chambers in that area. I stand (sit?) corrected.

But I don't understand what you mean by "FL or necksize doesn't matter, that's why you can check runout." Please explain.

A friend shot some 600 yard test groups in 1971 with his .308 and two of them were under that benchrest record; 10 shot ones at that. He shot several 10-shot groups that day ranging from just under .7 inch to about 1.5 inch. Then he fired a 40-shot group at 600 that was 1.92" between extreme centers. All with full length sized cases. Now it's your turn to sit (stand?) corrected.

I've shot .30-.338 ammo with both new and full length sized cases into three 5-shot groups for each bullet weight averaging about 3.6 inches with 190 and 200 HPMK's. Win. 70 action, wood stock fired prone from sandbags just testing for load performance. Compare that to:

International Benchrest Shooters

 

[backwoods83]

Necksizing is like having a tailored suit, if the action is true and the chamber is straight a fired case fits that chamber perfect, then you size the neck to get the desired tension. In most competition rifles I have seen this gives you .001" total runout on a loaded round. Bumping the shoulder is fine, .001-.002" doesn't really effect a whole lot however it is still working the entire case trying to push it back to the tolerances of your die, in turn its still harder on brass and causes more runout, typically .002-.003". And with neck sizing I can't see any reason that 100 pieces of lapua brass won't outlast your barrel even if it did go 6500 rounds. My point is you can do it either way, the most accurate shooters use competition bushing neck dies to squeeze out all it has, others go your route because they are way easier and faster to chamber. Tell your bubby with the .7" group that he needs to join the IBS, he could have all the records and win everything.

 

[Bart B]

Necksizing is like having a tailored suit, if the action is true and the chamber is straight a fired case fits that chamber perfect, then you size the neck to get the desired tension.

... its still harder on brass and causes more runout, typically .002-.003".

Tell your buddy with the .7" group that he needs to join the IBS, he could have all the records and win everything.

Neck sized fired cases don't align the bullet with the bore any more consistant than full length sized ones.

My full length sizing dies for 30 caliber cases with neck diameters a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters get runouts in the 1's. Such is common with full length bushing dies made these days. For 30 caliber cases, anything under 2 thousandths is good enough for sub 1/2 MOA at the worst at 1000 yards.

And my buddy's won his share of National titles and set many records in high power competition with his full length sized fired cases. As has his wife and two daughters. He has no interest in benchrest; that game's mostly luck whereas high power is mostly skill. I've asked him about shooting benchrest and he just laughs.

 

[WildRose]

Neck sized fired cases don't align the bullet with the bore any more consistant than full length sized ones. ...

I've got to say that this flies in the face of everything I've ever learned about reloading including just about everything written on the subject.

No two chambers are exactly the same, none are perfectly correct.

When it comes to the life of the brass, the more you work it, the shorter the case life.

 

[backwoods83]

Bench or bipod neither has **** to do with luck, besides most nbrsa highpower allow sighters at any time, IBS does not, sounds like highpower is a little easier to me, hell if conditions change I can just sling one at the sighter target and adjust from there. Tell your pal when he breaks the 1k 1.4" record I will laugh with him, if it were that easy every idiot with a rifle and a couple reloading manuals would do it.

 

[Bart B]

In response to my comments about proper full length sizing vs. neck only sizing aligning cases the same:

I've got to say that this flies in the face of everything I've ever learned about reloading including just about everything written on the subject.

No two chambers are exactly the same, none are perfectly correct.

Most everything written about that is based on assumptions. If one actually measures the difference between both sizing methods' aligning bullets in the bore, you'll see there's no difference. Without measuring, it's easy to see that when the firing pin drives the case forward in the chamber, its shoulder centers perfectly in the chamber shoulder regardless of how much clearance there is around the case body at that point. And the back end of the case is pressed against the chamber by the extractor pushing it there. That's where rimless bottleneck cases are when they're fired. In my own tests comparing neck only and full length sized cases with the loaded round's shoulder centered in a hole like it is in the chamber, full length sized ones center the case neck better on the shoulder than neck only sized ones.

And no two cases are exactly the same, either. Both chambers and cases are a tiny bit out of round.