These guys are mostly shooting 7 mm berger 180 f class bullets. Erik shoots a 7 prcw ( 6.5 prc necked up to 7mm) they also know the most accurate powders from experience. So they are just tweaking charge weight and seating depth.
“Your groups are too small” vs barrel life
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VenatusDominus
Well-Known Member
I subscribe to Erik's channel, respect and enjoy his content and have learned a great deal from him. I am familiar with Alex Wheeler but have not followed his channel. I am not aware of any statistically valid testing that Erik has proffered on his channel regarding seating depth. I do know that Keith Glasscock, also F-class, now PRS shooter was in the same camp as Erik regarding seating depth tuning...until three months ago when he tested his setting depth tuning with statistically valid sample sizes. He concluded there was no difference in accuracy between his "best" tuned seating depth and his "worst" tuned seating depth. I don't question Erik's abilities or success. I am just not sure they are for the reasons suggested. Based on Keith's data, Erik may have gotten the same scores using his worst tuned load. Only way to know is to get Erik to repeat the test that Keith did. Keith also shoots Bergers, but for some reason I thought Erik was sponsored by Lapua and shooting their brass and bullets?
What you are presenting is anecdotal evidence and what I am looking for is empirical evidence. I am new (since 2019) to the long range shooting community and admittedly my experience is limited. I have been frustrated with so many voices claiming their methods are "how it should be done" without any empirical evidence. I am not inferring that their methods don't work, what I am saying is that if so many different methods all produce the same results, accurate loads, then logically not all of the processes in the various methods are as significant as believed. In otherwords, their methods may work, but not for the reasons they think. My goal is, through empirical evidence, to sort out what actually makes a difference in the reloading process and what is just the deeply held dogma of the community.
So far, the empirical evidence I have seen supports the hypothesis that velocity and seating depth nodes are deeply held dogma, rather than something that actually makes a difference in the accuracy of a load. If there is some empirical evidence to the contrary I would love to see it, but at this point in my search for the truth, anecdotal evidence isn't going to sway me anymore than "because I said so".
And just to be clear, I deeply appreciate and respect the experience and knowledge of those in this community, and their willingness to share it. I know that their methods work and produce accurate results, all I am trying to do is figure out why.
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RichCoyle
Well-Known Member
There's only One Who has the credibility to say, "Because I say so."
VenatusDominus
Well-Known Member
AMEN to that!
For the purposes of the said rifle in my post above, I'm 100% fine with the precision as-is. I don't think placing back to back shots on a 2MOA plate at 1 mile can be chalked up to luck.
The rifle has demonstrated to me to be capable well beyond any shot I would be taking while hunting.
Successfully shooting at a mile makes 1,000 seem almost easy.
My 6.5/06 I use for long range depredation is a .5 moa setup and can hold that to 1000 yards. It holds a good waterline and just spits duplicates for the most part on the chronograph. It did take me a bit to find that particular load but this particular rifle will shoot decent with just about anything. The problem is some days I'm not a half moa shooter. To much caffeine. Spasms. Or just plain **** poor performance. I'm all for cold bore accuracy. I want the tightest groups with the lowest SD and ES. I don't shoot matches. A tight group with high SD and ES ain't hitting on much when it comes to long range. Out to 300 yards is a different story. If a barrel doesn't produce the accuracy I want it gets replaced. On my shorter range rifles moa is the limit. Over that they either go or get worked on until they will do that. I allow 5 to 10 minutes in between shots and once I find a load I may not shoot but 3 bullets a day. But I'll compare a weeks worth of targets for poi and group size. I will take some back to back shots at 30 second intervals or less on occasion just to see what the rifle will do in a follow up situation. It does help that my range is at my house.
Most of Hornady's aim is to sell their bullets and promote their cartridges. They are very good at marketing. But n some ways they are simply reinventing the wheel. There are some very accurate cartridges that have been around for a long time. I don't buy into the hype.
Most of Hornady's aim is to sell their bullets and promote their cartridges. They are very good at marketing. But n some ways they are simply reinventing the wheel. There are some very accurate cartridges that have been around for a long time. I don't buy into the hype.
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And to think a lot of us learned by reading manuals and through trial and error. Very ancient and archaic. We didn't even have computers in college and we had a rotary dial phone.What is this "paper copy" thing that you speak of?
Do they even teach the younger generations how to read and write any more?
If it ain't on the You Tube than it doesn't exist LOL
VenatusDominus
Well-Known Member
Hey, we had slide rules and got to the moon and back, not too shabby.
RichCoyle
Well-Known Member
I think it's been more than forty-five years since I used a slide rule. I found it in the drawer the other day.
nealm66
Well-Known Member
To me, it's kinda silly to think there isn't powder or velocity nodes but it doesn't matter. I remember when I got my v3 and realizing my old pact dispenser was finding the node by default. I believe I can find better accuracy with a powder or seating ladder or both. I also use a tuner on my rifles. But in the end, what difference does it make to anyone else other than those I compete with. Whichever course you choose to find your accuracy, get out and practice with it and be thankful that we can!
You should take up IBS. You'll hang with the 1000yd heavy gun world record holders. The current agg record is just under .5 MOA.
While your performance will affect your results, it's probably just not a .5 MOA gun and much of what you're seeing is just the expected variation from small sample sizes.
I think the empirical evidence is the fact that Cortina won the southwest regional f class match against some of the best shooters in the world. These guys are big on what the target is telling them. You can say they don't have the statistics to back it up but again they are not going to use up a good bit of their barrel life trying to empirically prove something through statistics. If you look at the math of statistics it's about % of probability. It's also about using the best components, having good qc in your loading and being an excellent shot. There are a lot of variables in shooting. The more consistent our loads are the more consistent they will shoot. You can't discount the shooter either. We all act like if we had a 1/4 moa rifle we could actually shoot that. I'd bet most of us could not. Ultimately for a hunter the empirical proof is dead critters on the ground. Who cares if you rifle is 1/2 or 3/4 moa in reality. It's not going to matter on target. While a lot of us will argue on the internet some guys just go kill stuff.
nealm66
Well-Known Member
Those heavy guns are shooting 3, 10 shot relays in 36 minutes. Nothing says a sporter type barrel in a magnum cartridge can't shoot as good or better but that course of fire dictates what can be used. Also there are limits on muzzle brakes.The light gun is 3, 5 shot groups and is tighter groups than the heavy gun. You could choose to believe it's natural dispersion but it's actually later in the day with more wind.
nealm66
Well-Known Member
I should edit, light gun is 3, 5 shot groups in 36 minutes. A lot of guys including some of the current best in the world, use the same rifle in both classes. I think a lot of folks would really enjoy going to a national match. It would be a good place to ask these questions about reloading for accuracy.
