Motivation for ML hunting restrictions

[Sam Aspacher]

Been talking about this with my cousin. Why there are so many restrictions on muzzleloaders for hunting and will more States follow Colorado and add more restrictions. Wondering if anyone has firsthand knowledge of what the law makers motivations are?
My cousin believes they want to lower success rates by limiting the weapons range and efficiency so they can sell more tags, basically greed.
I always assumed it was that people just have different ideas of what a muzzleloader is. Also hard for me to believe a wildlife organization wanting less efficient weapons. Wouldn't that lead to more lost game?
Can anyone explain the real reasons? And do you expect more restrictions to come? Like no scopes, no .45 calibers, ect?

 

[AZShooter]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

 

[dblman]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

Another example of a dept not knowing anything about what they are trying to do. Better to have the best possible, most efficient means of harvesting any game animal. it is not to make it harder for the hunter, but easier that the harvest is more complete. STUPID...

 

[CCAguns]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

Nothing primitive about todays scoped muzzleloaders. States just want more and more money. Game management should be scientific, maintaining a healthy animal herd. More wounded animals is unacceptable. Why allow everyone to use crossbows? Use of crossbow was originally allowed to help those with physical disabilities. Same BS.

 

[chav0_12]

Same reason crossbows aren't allowed in real archery seasons? (In most places anyway).

I think it sucks, I have a nice in-line that I bought to use in AZ. Now in Montana they just started a ML season but it's super traditional. They're not selling more tags, this is an after the fact hunt on general tags.

I think traditional equipment, which MLs are, should remain range limited, that's part of the reason you can get the tag easier, it's supposed to be harder. If not, they should just get rid of the ML tags and make them rifle tags.

 

[khmplus]

Another example of a dept not knowing anything about what they are trying to do. Better to have the best possible, most efficient means of harvesting any game animal. it is not to make it harder for the hunter, but easier that the harvest is more complete. STUPID...

It's a muzzle loader, already severely handicapped as compared to other rifles and nowhere near the most efficient means of harvesting game. The effective lethal range on deer sized game is around 250 yards. The two options to prevent over harvesting are to lower the success rate or reduce the number of tags. There are arguments on both sides. They chose to maintain participation but lower the success rate, I'm sure with a lot of input and consideration. "Stupidity" is a little harsh as a reason for the decision. Given the choice, I would probably want to use a scope, but if I loved to hunt with a muzzle loader, I would use the iron sights if required.

 

[billflangjr813]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

So now they want you to make Sh-t shots at your Game. Cut down the number permits !

 

[Tommy T]

Same reason crossbows aren't allowed in real archery seasons? (In most places anyway).

I think it's sucks, I have a nice in-line that I bought to use in AZ. Now in Montana they just started a ML season but it's super traditional. They're not selling more tags, this is an after the fact hunt on general tags.

I think traditional equipment, which MLs are, should remain range limited, that's part of the reason you can get the tag easier, it's supposed to be harder. If not, they should just get rid of the ML tags and make them rifle tags.

I agree the ideal is to use ML the way they did 100 years ago , Nevada you can't use scopes on them

 

[Tommy T]

It's a muzzle loader, already severely handicapped as compared to other rifles and nowhere near the most efficient means of harvesting game. The effective lethal range on deer sized game is around 250 yards. The two options to prevent over harvesting are to lower the success rate or reduce the number of tags. There are arguments on both sides. They chose to maintain participation but lower the success rate, I'm sure with a lot of input and consideration. "Stupidity" is a little harsh as a reason for the decision. Given the choice, I would probably want to use a scope, but if I loved to hunt with a muzzle loader, I would use the iron sights if required.

I no guys that are shooting out to 800 to 1000 yds With scopes

 

[Chas1]

It's all BS

 

[Reelamin]

I also have short and not very well timed seasons. No one mentioned Youtube and other internet media including Forums. Yes, the government uses the internet to see what is going on. So many poaching cases made right off social media. The equipment is 1000 times better than it was 20 years ago, and yes more people are killing animals then ever before. Bottom line is the internet information has made it able to happen. Yes I am guilty of perpetuating the problem. I wanted a 300yd muzzle loader capable of killing elk at 300yds. Easy got on the internet and boom had a Bestill in my hands shortly after. No optics just long range iron sights, and the rifle is very capable of 300yd accuracy and energy for deer and elk. Did I mention I have my range finder to know exact yardage?

 

[chav0_12]

I agree the ideal is to use ML the way they did 100 years ago , Nevada you can't use scopes on them

I don't think it's quite even 100 years. Maybe 20-30 years. Before they started making a bunch of these precision muzzle loaders that shoot like centerfire rifles. I don't think they want to go to flintlocks and percussion primers, that's what Montana allowed, but it's called traditional. The in-line ML I have is from 10-15 years ago, it's nothing super fancy but with a scope it's probably good to 250-300, nothing compared to some of the others out there.

I think moving in the direction of making ML tags more like a ML tag and less like a rifle tag is the right direction to go to maintain a level of opportunity. If guys want to shoot deer or elk at extended ranges, go get a rifle tag instead.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Same reason crossbows aren't allowed in real archery seasons? (In most places anyway).

Um NO. Maybe some places but definitely not MOST. REAL ARCHERY LMAO. So by real you MUST mean LONG BOW OR RECURVE. Correct?? Absolutely not compound bows. Nothing real about 70 to 80% let off fiber optic sights or scope sights. Peep sights kisser buttons etc. So if long or RECURVE bows are what you are talking about then sure I agree. But if your talking modern compounds. Nope! Absolutely not real archery.

Back on topic, muzzleloaders are loaded from the muzzle but just different powders available to push your bullet of choice at various speeds so all they have to do is limit type of powder or caliber or projectile used. This alone would effectively reduce its range capabilities. There are unbelievably fantastic advancements in muzzleloaders for sure. My home state of NJ doesn't disallow my new full on custom McWhorter smokless muzzleloader 45XML. but does limit the powder used by making me use black powder/ BH 209 That alone effectively reduces my range. So why or what are the game commission reasons for doing anything? We may never fully understand how their brain works. Doesn't make much sense. But people will be launching bullets with iron sights and more wounded game will happen unfortunately. I rather see them allow scopes to reduce the wounding of animals. Put that as priority IMHO.

 

[biednick]

It's to lower success rates. It's hard to know what the motivation behind lowering success rates is. Obviously they can sell more tags, so they bring in more money. It's easy to see that and blame it on greed. Primative weapon seasons, like ML and archery, often fall during prime hunting periods like the rut and are easier to draw for. A lower success rate means more tags can be issued and more hunters can get out in the field. Primative weapon seasons let you trade weapon efficacy for better hunt timing.