Watch a video of Canadian wolves taking down a bison. Once down, they start to eat, they don't worry about killing it. I'm not sure poisoning is any worse. Starving to death probably isn't painless either. I wondered about wolves killing humans, so I googled it. It hardly happened in the 1900's but in the 1800's it was different. I read one story about a posse who went to look for a couple of hunters that didn't return. They found bones, clothes, and 17 dead wolves. The moral of the story is take lots of ammo, and shoot fast. I've always thought the trend of hunting with AR's was silly, but when the wolf packs get big enough, it will make lots of sense.
Wolves poisoned in Oregon
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azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
I think most all members on LRH agree that wolves are bad news for elk numbers and need to be controlled. And that one of the most viable ways to control wolf numbers is through controlled hunts. Our problem is that the wolf reintroduction program has become a political football. Science seems to be ignored while sound bites and platitudes rule the media. Rather than wringing our hands and saying it shouldn't be that way, we need to accept that fact and move forward in the political/legal arena. Remember that hunters represent a small percentage of the public who have ultimate say (through gov't. agencies & courts) on what happens to wildlife on public lands. The last numbers I saw put hunters at less than 5% of the total US public. This small percentage drops further when those hunters that are only interested in upland birds, waterfowl or predator hunting view this as a non-issue for them. On the other side is an even smaller percentage of radical individuals that feel everything shoud take a back set to wildlife. In the middle is the large 'swing vote' of the public majority that don't have strong or informed feelings either way. They are the ones that will ultimately decide on this issue. Yes, courts and wildlife agencies make policy with short-term effects. But if the public does not support their decisions or programs, they are eventually abandoned for what the public wants.
Both sides are battling for the hearts and minds of this public majority. To date, the small, vocal minority of the radical game management left has done a better job of convincing the public that their plan may be the better way to go. We need to do a better job of putting our best foot forward and start convincing this vast majority that our approach is better: a science-based, wildlife model proven over time. I repectfully submit that we will not win over the hearts and minds of this majority (including lawmakers and federal agency employees included) by representing ourselves as conservationists while making public statements like 'kill them all' or poisoning and shooting wolves outside of the law is what we really believe.
Both sides are battling for the hearts and minds of this public majority. To date, the small, vocal minority of the radical game management left has done a better job of convincing the public that their plan may be the better way to go. We need to do a better job of putting our best foot forward and start convincing this vast majority that our approach is better: a science-based, wildlife model proven over time. I repectfully submit that we will not win over the hearts and minds of this majority (including lawmakers and federal agency employees included) by representing ourselves as conservationists while making public statements like 'kill them all' or poisoning and shooting wolves outside of the law is what we really believe.
Are not all horses in America Feral horses?
azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
Depends on who you are talking to and how thy define feral. It's probably not a discussion for this thread, so I will send you a PM. Perhaps we will start another thread?
Thanks
There is no way in gods green earth this is gonna happen Montana has been doing it for years and the numbers just keep increasing. Sp6x6 nailed it on the head.
You people that don't have them have no idea how difficult hunting wolves can be
especially in the thick timber of Western Montana.
Try it here you will be humbled quick.
Starbuck
Well-Known Member
I'm an avid hunter, shooter, reloader, and life long conservative. I have no issues with wolves, they are part of ecosystem and should be managed like all other game animals. Poisoning? Sorry, makes me think whoever did that is a piece of shyte.
[/QUOTE]
I see from your moniker that you're in WI. Are you in an area that has had wolves for a long time?
I'm not anti Wolf, but the population has way exceeded the original management plan.
[/QUOTE]
I see from your moniker that you're in WI. Are you in an area that has had wolves for a long time?
I'm not anti Wolf, but the population has way exceeded the original management plan.
Not sure about the equines.
But the feral swines are all invasive!
How bout that for a subject change.
GO!
Where at in Nebraska?
You guys that say you have no problems with wolves there part of the ecosystem they should be manage just like any other game animal o.k how do you suggest to " manage" them to reduce the numbers.
There not even close to hunting elk or deer He%% not even coyotes for that matter.
Yeah...I bet it was the new transit CAs voted to say yea....
azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
L.Sherm,
If you read my post carefully, you will see that I advocated that hunting is one way to help control the wolf population. I never said it was the only way. Historically, we were able to hunt and trap the wolf to near extinction. If necessary, we can probably do it again.
I do understand how difficult it might be to hunt wolves in heavy timber. Believe it or not, AZ had its own wolf reintroduction program that started back in 1998. Fortunately for us, the wolf reintroduced in AZ was the smaller mexican red wolf. So far, these wolves have not had a big impact on our elk/deer herds. AZ also has vast swaths of heavy timber as we are part of the largest yellow pine forest in the world - the mighty Poderosa pine forest. The same forest that stretches up through Montana. In fact, I believe the Ponderosa pine is even on your state flag.
Since their introduction in 1998, I have made one or two 'hunting' trips a year into the heavy timber (scouting only, as there is no hunting season for wolves in AZ) trying to set my eyes on a mexican red wolf in the wild. I have been successful on only a few occasions. I also have a place in Henry's Fork, Idaho. I have spent time with friends who live on the Idaho/Montana border looking for the grey wolf in those heavily timbered forests.
You stated in your most recent post: "You people that don't have them have no idea how difficult hunting wolves can be especially in the thick timber of Western Montana". Since you included a quote from my previous post at the top, I can only assume your comment was directed at me. I hope I have cleared up that misconception for you. Just because somebody doesn't live where you live does not mean they have no idea what you are experiencing. On a final note, I find discussions become much more meaningful when you talk to somebody instead of talking down to them.
If you read my post carefully, you will see that I advocated that hunting is one way to help control the wolf population. I never said it was the only way. Historically, we were able to hunt and trap the wolf to near extinction. If necessary, we can probably do it again.
I do understand how difficult it might be to hunt wolves in heavy timber. Believe it or not, AZ had its own wolf reintroduction program that started back in 1998. Fortunately for us, the wolf reintroduced in AZ was the smaller mexican red wolf. So far, these wolves have not had a big impact on our elk/deer herds. AZ also has vast swaths of heavy timber as we are part of the largest yellow pine forest in the world - the mighty Poderosa pine forest. The same forest that stretches up through Montana. In fact, I believe the Ponderosa pine is even on your state flag.
Since their introduction in 1998, I have made one or two 'hunting' trips a year into the heavy timber (scouting only, as there is no hunting season for wolves in AZ) trying to set my eyes on a mexican red wolf in the wild. I have been successful on only a few occasions. I also have a place in Henry's Fork, Idaho. I have spent time with friends who live on the Idaho/Montana border looking for the grey wolf in those heavily timbered forests.
You stated in your most recent post: "You people that don't have them have no idea how difficult hunting wolves can be especially in the thick timber of Western Montana". Since you included a quote from my previous post at the top, I can only assume your comment was directed at me. I hope I have cleared up that misconception for you. Just because somebody doesn't live where you live does not mean they have no idea what you are experiencing. On a final note, I find discussions become much more meaningful when you talk to somebody instead of talking down to them.
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I kinda find it hard to believe this thread, it is very discouraging the amount of non native wolf propaganda that many seem to have swallowed.
Growing up in Mt we all knew about the wolf packs around, they would be seen rarely, sometimes some tracks in the remote areas in snowmobile trails and very rarely one would get shot for being an issue, they were here doing just fine till the introduction which MANY biologist fought and silenced on!!
I was working just over the boarder in Idaho for a biologist when this all went down and he was livid, every bit of input they put in was round filed and he predicted exactly what would happen. We saw all the native packs wiped out, moose wiped out, elk obliterated and pushed onto private and an apex predator that has no business here that we have no chance of managing and all in a few years!
Anyone who thinks a wolf pack only kills the weak and only out of hunger is frankly naive and willfully ignorant of reality. I've seen the native wolves kill livestock, you find a red spot in the snow and some scraps, these wolves you find livestock disables and alive or only a small part eaten usually in the fall when the pups are learning to kill, totally different ways of living on the land scape!! The native wolves never made these super packs, they stayed very small and very localized not 15, 20 members moving across multiple drainages in the open.
This year we had zero elk on the winter range behind my house, there used to be a couple thousand.
We kill wolves here at a pace far better than anywhere else, everyone hammers them and the gov trappers fly the heck out of them and gun them and we have no hope of getting them under control, anyone who thinks we can manage them has no concept of how many we are killing just to loose more ungulates and livestock.
Grizzlies are nearly as bad, though being native having a moderate hunting season on them would produce wonderful results, FWP kills 50+ a year and it's not a blip on the radar so we should have a fairly generous season and it would help.
Horses are livestock, they have zero business being treated or labels wild horses. Some of my favorite horses have been mustangs, dang smart and amazing in the mountains but NOT a wild animal which is abundantly clear when you see a contrast of how they live on the land.
Everything seemed to have a place at one time, the native wolves fit, Mt lions fit, coyotes and fox fit, grizzly and black bears fit, a moderate amount of human management kept balances. Large ungulate populations and a diverse predator population and were easily managed, sustainable and there was a quality renewable resource for everyone.
Looking at how long it take native species to recover when managed excellently it's a lengthy process, the introduced wolf took a few years to blow by any metric that was thought possible, wonder why, what has taken decades for the griz to do they did in a few years, the Mt lion also had a bounty and was almost wiped out and took them decades to come back, the native wolf took decades to be known again and then in a very short few years we have an unmanageable number of introduced wolves that have completely turned our ecosystem upside down the contrast between difference species recovering should be a big clue!!
Don't care how they are killed, any method a human would use would be far better than their natural end, I prefer a method that goes bang and lands me a fur and skull to sell but can't be picky when dealing with something that does not belong!!
Growing up in Mt we all knew about the wolf packs around, they would be seen rarely, sometimes some tracks in the remote areas in snowmobile trails and very rarely one would get shot for being an issue, they were here doing just fine till the introduction which MANY biologist fought and silenced on!!
I was working just over the boarder in Idaho for a biologist when this all went down and he was livid, every bit of input they put in was round filed and he predicted exactly what would happen. We saw all the native packs wiped out, moose wiped out, elk obliterated and pushed onto private and an apex predator that has no business here that we have no chance of managing and all in a few years!
Anyone who thinks a wolf pack only kills the weak and only out of hunger is frankly naive and willfully ignorant of reality. I've seen the native wolves kill livestock, you find a red spot in the snow and some scraps, these wolves you find livestock disables and alive or only a small part eaten usually in the fall when the pups are learning to kill, totally different ways of living on the land scape!! The native wolves never made these super packs, they stayed very small and very localized not 15, 20 members moving across multiple drainages in the open.
This year we had zero elk on the winter range behind my house, there used to be a couple thousand.
We kill wolves here at a pace far better than anywhere else, everyone hammers them and the gov trappers fly the heck out of them and gun them and we have no hope of getting them under control, anyone who thinks we can manage them has no concept of how many we are killing just to loose more ungulates and livestock.
Grizzlies are nearly as bad, though being native having a moderate hunting season on them would produce wonderful results, FWP kills 50+ a year and it's not a blip on the radar so we should have a fairly generous season and it would help.
Horses are livestock, they have zero business being treated or labels wild horses. Some of my favorite horses have been mustangs, dang smart and amazing in the mountains but NOT a wild animal which is abundantly clear when you see a contrast of how they live on the land.
Everything seemed to have a place at one time, the native wolves fit, Mt lions fit, coyotes and fox fit, grizzly and black bears fit, a moderate amount of human management kept balances. Large ungulate populations and a diverse predator population and were easily managed, sustainable and there was a quality renewable resource for everyone.
Looking at how long it take native species to recover when managed excellently it's a lengthy process, the introduced wolf took a few years to blow by any metric that was thought possible, wonder why, what has taken decades for the griz to do they did in a few years, the Mt lion also had a bounty and was almost wiped out and took them decades to come back, the native wolf took decades to be known again and then in a very short few years we have an unmanageable number of introduced wolves that have completely turned our ecosystem upside down the contrast between difference species recovering should be a big clue!!
Don't care how they are killed, any method a human would use would be far better than their natural end, I prefer a method that goes bang and lands me a fur and skull to sell but can't be picky when dealing with something that does not belong!!
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azsugarbear
Well-Known Member
I agree that the wolf problem in the Northern Rocky Mountain states is real. I also recognize that the wolf problem is different today than it may have been 100 years ago. I feel there are way too many wolves in MT, ID & WY at the moment. I also believe we could get on top of this problem if the Feds and the pro-wolf coalition would leave these states alone and let them manage their wolf populations. Sadly, I do not see that happening, which means we have to work within the system to change things. I also believe that making irresponsible, scorched-earth statements on wolf management will only serve to alienate the very people we need to recruit in order to get the restrictions lifted so we can begin to better manage the wolf numbers.
I would also agree with you on the matter of the wild horses. A better term for them would be feral livestock, but I used the term wild horses because that is the word/label most people use to describe them. My reference to the wild horses was only to illustrate what happens when any group of animals gets too much protection - unbridled, unmanageable growth that hurts the environment as well as other animals in that environment. My solution would be the same for horses as for the wolves: get the current regulations lifted so the numbers can be knocked back to something far more reasonable. In either case, I am talking about drastic reductions in the total population.
However, unlike some on this forum, I do not advocate for the complete annihilation of wolves or wild/feral horses. I do believe we can find a place for them. But only in a very limited range. If they wander outside those areas, then it should be shoot on sight without restrictions. This would be similar to the solution found for the bison migration out of the north Yellowstone Park and into MT. I cannot speak for others, but that is the only wolf propaganda I have swallowed thus far.
Perhaps we only disagree on how to best accomplish that goal?
I would also agree with you on the matter of the wild horses. A better term for them would be feral livestock, but I used the term wild horses because that is the word/label most people use to describe them. My reference to the wild horses was only to illustrate what happens when any group of animals gets too much protection - unbridled, unmanageable growth that hurts the environment as well as other animals in that environment. My solution would be the same for horses as for the wolves: get the current regulations lifted so the numbers can be knocked back to something far more reasonable. In either case, I am talking about drastic reductions in the total population.
However, unlike some on this forum, I do not advocate for the complete annihilation of wolves or wild/feral horses. I do believe we can find a place for them. But only in a very limited range. If they wander outside those areas, then it should be shoot on sight without restrictions. This would be similar to the solution found for the bison migration out of the north Yellowstone Park and into MT. I cannot speak for others, but that is the only wolf propaganda I have swallowed thus far.
Perhaps we only disagree on how to best accomplish that goal?
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