Wolf kill pics.... Trophy Bull Elk.....

[Korhil78]

I don't even know why anyone is responding to their posts anymore. If 115 posts isn't going to convince them then 115 more wont do it either. I will do my thing and they can do theirs.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Amen Bro! I find it hard to believe that either actually calls themselves a hunter and are even on this website! I would bet that neither have been out hunting where we are talking about and if either come back on here and says they have I'll call BS!!!

 

[timmay]

Wow.

A couple of those posts by Sully2 and Timmay...I'm not even sure the tools exist in their toolbox to understand this issue. How you two can call yourselves hunters and have the thinking you do is beyond me.

Fact is, I really wonder if you are hunters. If you are, it just goes to show the financial and biological lack of understanding of how and why wildlife management works in this country and the abundant wildlife we have had because of the unique, sportsmen hunter supported system we have here. If you don't have at least an elementary grasp of this subject, with the replies you've given, I fear there is little place to start as you seem quite entrenched in thinking that deep sixes the very thing you say you love--hunting.


Sully2 and Timmay:


1) Prove to us that you are hunters-

2) Explain to us how wildlife management is funded in this country and the role that wolves will play in that-

If you can do that (and there are many here willing to help you understand the "North American Wildlife Management Model", if you would accept pointers), then we might have a place to start a discussion with you two. Otherwise, you are contributing nothing but nonsensical words.

Show us the facts to back up your statements.

Sully2, you said that no wolf has killed humans that wasn't rabid, as I recal. That is completely false and I gave you plenty of well known, well documented info to contradict your incorrect statement. Do the same in return to back up your statements and maybe we can start to have a conversation as so far your statements have little to do with facts, as you say they did.

I find it amusing that people like you think that because of humans wildlife has succeeded so well. You act like that if we dont control the numbers then all game would be extinct.
Funny how the Earth and ALL wildlife lived and flourished just fine for hundreds of thousands of years, but as soon as humans arive we think we MUST control the population by killing them off otherwise all hell is going to break loose is the ignorant fact. Get real man its you and so many others that are ignorant.
And so because I feel this way means I am not a hunter? No maybe not a hunter in your terms but my terms yes I am a hunter.
I hunt for food. No I dont have to hunt for food but I do. I do this so that I know how to just in case the time comes where it is a necessity for me to hunt to feed my family. I do enjoy the hunt and being out in the woods hunting but I personally do not like killing any animal and do not laugh and get my jollies from watching an animal die.
Im sorry Im not a hunter in your terms of hunting.
Wildlife management is needed, the kind that doesnt allow hunters to exceed a certain amount to keep the herds healthy, but the selfish management of "killing of predadors so us hunters can have more to hunt" is the ignorant fact

 

[coyotelite]

the problem is not with people with different ideas than our own. the problem is with people who advocate ideas that are ruining a way of life for thousands. wolves have thier place but need to be kept in check as to preserve huntable numbers of game. how can you argue with that and call yourself a hunter?

 

[Sully2]

All I can say is WOW!!!

The maturity level of this debate has just gone down several notches!! I thought we were talking about the problems of the wolf populations of the NW not who can support their family or not without hunting. I thought that hunting was a part of the SHOOTING SPORTS that we all enjoy. There are people that hunt for trophies and there are people that hunt for meat. If the wolves are killing too many animals that it is threatening the SPORTSMANS ability to hunt then there needs to be something done. I can say that I don't live in the west I'm from PA and the hunting here do to miss management and coyote predation has taken its toll. I do not recall anyone saying that the wolf needs to be wiped out and that it only needs to be kept in check to make sure that the hunting SPORT that we enjoy today is there for our children in the future.

As far as Im concerned your exactly right. Its when people give suggestion that things ...such as all wolves....need eliminated because they cut down on elk herds..etc...and therefore THEY ( the person) find it difficult to hunt and collect their quarry...that one needs to stop for a second and figure out just whats what.

They dont REQUIRE that elk meat for their existence..they WANT that elk...usually a bull...for a trophy.

You say you live in PA and the coyotes drug the deer population down. Aint no closed season on coyotes there is there? Ya can blast them year round and its the sane way with wolves...OUTSIDE a sanctuary such as YNP...if they are killing livestock...etc...blast them....dont just shoot them because they are running across your property.

One guy whined what is he cant hunt elk because the population goes up and down because of ..??..the wolves and management opens and closes the season and number of tags,,... Well suck it up is all I can say.

Ohio close quail hunting for several years because of low population....kinda makes one mad when you raise BIRD DOGS and have bird guns to go and hunt the little critters with. Not sure what they do "out west" but "back east" when the law says no..we dont hunt!!! radical concept aint it???

You can bet your last buck that before my family and kids STARVE to death...I'll cut into a deer or elk or even the neighbors Angus steer with a 270 if thats whats needed....but we arent discussing HAVE TO's...the chat is about WANT TO's.

 

[coyotelite]

I have never advocated the complete removal of wolves. I would say that when the herd number in the lolo zone in idaho was cut in half, the decision should have been made to cut the wolf numbers. It will take time to find the right ratio of wolves to game animals but as you decrease the numbers of wolves, monitor the elk and deer numbers. When the population levels out, you have found that happy medium. The time and effort need to be put in to find this solution. If the work would have been done starting in 1995 when the wolves were re-introduced, we would not be having this arguement now. Instead, the huggers kept the federal govt in the picture and removed the management responsability from the states.

 

[jmden]

Sully 2 and timmay,

The 'North American Wildlife Conservation Model' or 'North American Model of Wildlife Conservation' which has been more successful than any other system in the world to provide us with the abundant wildlife levels that we have enjoyed depends almost wholly on sport hunting. Sport hunters provide the funds through the '36 Pittman-Robertson Act and several other similar congressional acts/laws and through licensing fees that support and manage the wildlife that you hunt. Before this system started to arise about 100 years ago, commercial and subsistence hunters (yes, the folks that needed the food that you say should be the only ones hunting now) nearly destroyed wildlife in this country as we know it.

North American Wildlife Conservation Model

The Wildlife Society - The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and Public Trust Doctrine

North American Model of Wildlife Conservation - The Untold Story - conservation sportsmen public trust science management opportunity for all

From the link immediately above: "There is no alternative funding system in place to replace the potential lost funds for conservation. If hunting ends, funding for wildlife conservation is in peril."

This is the world we live in. We cannot go back to a time when only Native Americans lived here. It's not going to happen. So, you manage wildlife and you fund it mostly on the back of sportsmen hunters--that's how the system in this country works. The three links, the last being from Arizona Fish and Game, clearly explain this system. It is the best in the world and has provided us with fairly abundant wildlife.

If you don't understand how this systems works, a system that benefits everyone in this country, you need to or there is very little room for you to discuss wildlife and its management in this country.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

jmden and coyotelite---It's a waste of time trying to clue them in because we have been over all of what you guys have mentioned, especially on the NMA and it's falling on deaf ears! I can't say anything and they get pizzed off and yet one can say that I'm not worth the air I breathe. That's typical hugger talk if I've ever seen it!!! The one says we don't know what he's about, but I think we know more from his posts than he realizes. One last time. Have either of you, and I'm talking to sully2 and timmay, ever been out in the western states, especially in the last several years, to see what the wolves have done to the moose and elk out there? Seeing over 30 sheep killed on my friends's ranch with nothing eaten was the last straw for me to get in this fight and that ranch is well over 125 miles from the Yellowstone ecosystem where the wolves were going to stay according to the huggers when they were introduced in the 90s---yea, right!!!Don't come back and say those are the ones that should be killed either because a Federal Government paid trapper came in and was only able to eliminate 3 of the pack of 8 and he finally had to do it by aerial gunning because they were too smart to be trapped. The other ones are still alive and will probably drop countless more on the ground far from where they were supposed to be. It's now basically a war out there and if the numbers aren't knocked way down in the next few years nobody will be doing any sport OR subsistence hunting because those critters are top of the line KILLERS and are great at what they do for fun and food!!!

 

[timmay]

I have never advocated the complete removal of wolves. I would say that when the herd number in the lolo zone in idaho was cut in half, the decision should have been made to cut the wolf numbers. It will take time to find the right ratio of wolves to game animals but as you decrease the numbers of wolves, monitor the elk and deer numbers. When the population levels out, you have found that happy medium. The time and effort need to be put in to find this solution. If the work would have been done starting in 1995 when the wolves were re-introduced, we would not be having this arguement now. Instead, the huggers kept the federal govt in the picture and removed the management responsability from the states.

This is the best post in this whole argument. I totally agree with you

 

[bigngreen]

The reason I want all the current wolves dead is because they ARE NOT NATIVE to my area, it's well documented that the wolf that was introduced into this area is not the same sub species as was living here and doing well prior to the introduction. I don't want to kill the wolf of where it has a place, I've had ample opportunities to kill native wolves but I have not because they belonged and were in balance in our ecosystem.
I worked for a wildlife biologist in Salmon Id when they started talking about this wolf and he was full on against it because we already had a population of native wolf and this wolf was not it, his recommendations were round filed the same as many biologist who were on the ground in these areas.
I harbor no animosity toward the wolf in general, if the current wolf was a native animal I would be all for managing it just like any other animal. I've hunted Mt Lion all my life, never have I wanted to damage the population and I take animals that need to be taken, same with killing coyotes, I won't trap an area till they are gone I pull out once they are at a level that is right. The last thing I would want to do is permanently hurt the population of a native animal!!!!

 

[timmay]

More PETA type BS because none of us have said to kill all wolves in this thread. The last few pages of this thread you have just been talking out your *** with nothing of substance and you have not answered any logical question that has been brought up. That's because there is no logical answer to contradict what we've stated. You're the one who started the chit about the members career and badmouthing, so if you can't take it back, get off the friggin thread! Simple question---Do you know what the NMA is and have you read it? You have now gone over the top and told us that we have to subscribe to your theory of the only reason hunting should be done and it's directly opposite of a free society and what PETA and all the other huggers espouse. I will repeat agin that you are a travesty to call yourself a hunter and come back with the crap you keep posting. GO AWAY and join the huggers!!!

go back and read buddy, I never said a word about anyones family members or career choice..and where did I EVER say how people should hunt and if they dont hunt the way I do then they arent hunters? Its YOU guys that are saying that I am not a hunter at all because I dont hunt like you. All you can keep saying is "go joint peta or the huggers" Come up with something different now

 

[timmay]

The reason I want all the current wolves dead is because they ARE NOT NATIVE to my area, it's well documented that the wolf that was introduced into this area is not the same sub species as was living here and doing well prior to the introduction. I don't want to kill the wolf of where it has a place, I've had ample opportunities to kill native wolves but I have not because they belonged and were in balance in our ecosystem.
I worked for a wildlife biologist in Salmon Id when they started talking about this wolf and he was full on against it because we already had a population of native wolf and this wolf was not it, his recommendations were round filed the same as many biologist who were on the ground in these areas.
I harbor no animosity toward the wolf in general, if the current wolf was a native animal I would be all for managing it just like any other animal. I've hunted Mt Lion all my life, never have I wanted to damage the population and I take animals that need to be taken, same with killing coyotes, I won't trap an area till they are gone I pull out once they are at a level that is right. The last thing I would want to do is permanently hurt the population of a native animal!!!!

I respect your comment and I feel the same way as you
Maybe I came off different I dont know. Its real irritating being called a peta or wolf hugger because I feel natural balance is proper rather than pure eradication.
If the wolves have been transplanted then to where they arent native then I do see the issue, but still I wouldnt think eradication (kill the whole population) is the answer

 

[Sully2]

If you don't understand how this systems works, a system that benefits everyone in this country, you need to or there is very little room for you to discuss wildlife and its management in this country.

I understand perfectly how the system works and have bought a hunting license every year since 1963....even on the years I was positive I wasnt about to go hunting that year. It wasnt much but it kicked in a few $$ into the system.

 

[jmden]

Wildlife management is needed, the kind that doesnt allow hunters to exceed a certain amount to keep the herds healthy, but the selfish management of "killing of predadors so us hunters can have more to hunt" is the ignorant fact

And that shows your lack of how the 'North American Model of Wildlife Conservation' works.

If there is not game to hunt, wildlife conservation is not funded as it is funded on the backs of sportmen hunters and fisherman. The sportman hunter and fishermen are the most important part of the 'North American Model of Wildlife Management' as they provide the funding to conserve, or preserve in some cases, ALL wildlife.

I will spell it out for you: If wolves are not properly managed, hunting opportunities decrease and less people hunt. Less hunters means less excise taxes being paid to conserve wildlife and less licenses being purchased which means less money available for wildlife management? It takes very little time on the internet to figure out the realities of this situation.

The net realistic result of the positions you are taking is that of having little to no funding to support the abundant wildlife we've had.

Wolves in the lower 48 must be managed and managed agressively to greatly reduce their numbers or the whole of wildlife in this country will begin to suffer greatly because it is the sportsmen hunter who is at the core of the system. Less hunters=less money for wildlife management.

Wolves in the lower 48 are increasing their populations at a rate of 25% a year. The elk and deer are not doing this. Elk need a calf/cow ratio on the order of ~30/100 just to maintain the population of that herd. These are well known numbers. Many herd are at 10/100 or less due to being constantly harrassed by wolves. Our elk herds are slowly being eaten and harrassed to death.

Another well known number is that each wolf eats a biomass equal to about 26 elk a year, not to mention the many animals that are killed and only a small part is eaten (as the pictures at the front of this post) or not eaten at all. Go to Home and look around a bit. Even staying with the 26 elk a year and knowing the population numbers of elk in individual states and the rate at which wolves are expanding their territories and the wolves ability to reproduce, which at 5-8 pups/year vs. a cow elk with 1 calf, maybe two, you start to realize the trouble our ungulates are in.

Do you care about the elk/deer/moose and the fact that many of their local herds/populations are at the brink of not being able to recover even if the wolf was not here, let alone the fact that they are here and the elk and moose and deer are being killed at an accelerating rate due to an acclerating increase in wolf population? This is basic wildlife populations dynamics. Stuff I learned as an undergrad with a biology major. Pretty basic stuff.