Wolf kill pics.... Trophy Bull Elk.....

[Sully2]

Good post angus, but I'm 64 and have to go with jmden on this one! I don't want to see them completely eradicated from the west. We could leave one or two in each state and it would be fine with me! Just a joke, as I think if they are brought down to numbers where we can all coexist I would have no problem. We haven't heard from either of these gents since their BS was refuted with facts! It's sort of like the old saying that you don't bring a knife to a gunfight!!!

Well...Facts can be facts can be facts. EVERY link that was posted wasnt the "essence of fact" that some assume. Some were definitely correct...some werent.

There are locations wolves can exist and places they cant. I have no problem with killing the cattle predators or ones that cause human problems....other than that let them live where they are "protected" and have enough to feed on.

If the Govt has enough $$ to feed elk in Jackson Hole in the winter...they have enough $$ to buy some muley cows from some Montana rancer to feed wolves in Yellowstone

 

[jmden]

Fair enough. I missed that Sully2 was retired. my appologies. I do like how you made the contrast between preservation and conservation... I wasnt able to put words to the diffrence between the two veiws.

jmden,
I wasnt hopeing for an apology, as non was due. I was just hopeing that the conversation wouldnt get any more heated. The respect thing was as much for the other two fellows as anyone. Good debate... however one sided (the right side).

OK. I think we understand each other. Wasn't too concerned about that, just wanted to clarify a bit.

 

[jmden]

Im definately retired and if I had kids that went to the public schools today...Id yank them out and have them home schooled. Teachers ( in general now) and their ideas are totally out of touch with the world!

As for myself I live under the concept that anything harmful to MAN needs to be eradicated..but NOT wholesale slaughter. You got kids and they get attacked..."remove" ( in this case) the wolves that did it; Cattle that get killed...same deal. Joggers and such that get attacked...same sort of eradication....whether it be wolves; grizzly bears; mountain lions or bengal tigers!!!

But dont lay the blame in all cases at the feet of the animal. People that live in the wilderness ( ever been to Alaska...the whole place other than the FEW major cities is WILDERNESS!!) and go jogging down some dirt road with NO FORM of ANY "personal protection"...be it bear spray; baseball bat or .44 magnum....and gets chewed on by "X" animal(s)...all I can say is Momma never raised such a dumb child!!

1) You live in an area that used to be wilderness. What responsibility do you feel towards the fact that you have participated in eradicating wilderness? Everyone is 'guilty' on this count if we use your philosophy.

2)People should obviously take responsibility for their own safety. Taking responsibility is not something this culture teaches very well anymore. But that is a whole 'nother conversation that you've brought up. Let's stick to the point.

3)The wolf in the lower 48 has not been managed properly. Every other species is managed to control populations so that they (should) stay within the 'carrying capacity' of the land and not out-compete other species too badly. Do you think the wolf should be treated differently? The wolf has and is severely damaging moose, elk and deer populations, not to mention it's competition with Grizzlies, black bears and other predators. Yet all we hear about is the precious overpopulated wolf from the extreme environmentalists.

Do you realize the amount of money that has flowed into the coffers of these extreme environmetnalists groups due to the wolf. It is many times more than any other species has produced for them. The wolf in the lower 48 has been professionally marketed and has produced an unbelievable 'bounty' for these groups. Follow the money.

All of this is clearly detailed in the links I left for you on page 8. Links to other similar recent conversations on the subject. Save us all the trouble and go read those carefully.

Jon

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Sully2---The "facts" are that you are doing a lot of selective reading similar to the antis and not looking at the whole picture. Your comprehension isn't up to par either when you call out a person for not shooting the horse killing wolves when he wasn't even there to see them that next day! Slow down and read everything thoroughly that you've been asked to read to bring yourself up to date on the subject. If the wolves are left unchecked in the Park as is the plan, there will eventually be nothing left and they will go out looking for other places to survive and those places already have too many. The ones in the Park have now even learned how to kill Bison because the other animals have been decimated so badly. Who would have thought they would be able to take one of those animals down, but they are and it's been documented by people in the Park watching them do that. It wasn't weak and crippled ones they took down either.

 

[elkaholic]

Sully....I came down on you pretty hard for good reason but I apologize for getting personal and not just stating facts! This sort of propaganda that is being spread around by uniformed people is exactly why this country is doing so badly! (Sometimes it isn't a matter of being uniformed, but an intentional agenda,) which REALLY stirs me up! It causes foolishness in every area of our society affecting our very core (starting with impressionable kids) We have an obligation to do better! It creates a whole mentality of people being secondary to all of nature which puts people out of work, and in extreme cases, the people who think they are protecting animals become animals themselves (actually worse because animals are only instinctive). No one is suggesting that all wolves be erradicated, and believe me, that will never happen here in Idaho as it is an impossibility to ever hunt or trap them out. The only way it would happen is if people get so frustrated with the foolishness that they poison them off like the old ranchers did (with the help of the state)! PLEASE check the facts before you repeat things and try to listen with an open mind to some of the people on this forum! I have spent most of my 65 years in the woods as a forester and hunter and have seen the results of what wolves can do in a few short years! And no, I'm not very politically correct........Rich

 

[jmden]

We're wasting our time trying to reason with morons! If it were possible, and it may be someday soon, they would try to clone tyrannosaurus rex and reintroduce them too!....Rich

I understand what you are saying, Rich. I just can't help but think other hunters who might read this thread. I know you do too.

This is a war and my personal opinion is that we need to fight it on every front there is with no option for retreat at anytime. We can't afford not too. So, I hear what you are saying, but I just cannot abide baseless opinions on such an important subject! I'm not saying you don't agree. It does just get so frustrating dealing with people who call themselves hunters, make these baseless grandiose statements and then refuse to argue based on the facts--this needs strong rebuttal. I just don't think that we can allow this kind of thinking here without a strong rebuttal.

 

[elkaholic]

I understand what you are saying, Rich. I just can't help but think other hunters who might read this thread. I know you do too.

This is a war and my personal opinion is that we need to fight it on every front there is with no option for retreat at anytime. We can't afford not too. So, I hear what you are saying, but I just cannot abide baseless opinions on such an important subject! I'm not saying you don't agree. It does just get so frustrating dealing with people who call themselves hunters, make these baseless grandiose statements and then refuse to argue based on the facts--this needs strong rebuttal. I just don't think that we can allow this kind of thinking here without a strong rebuttal.

I think (I hope) I answered your question with a post I just submitted about the same time you posted to me. I think we are on the same page. Sometimes my emotions interfere with my mouth......Rich

 

[coyotelite]

I have a serious question for sully.

If wolves where YOU live had cut the numbers of the game that YOU have hunted YOUR whole life to a level that justified limiting YOUR chance of hunting, and you had a chance to "control" the wolf population through predator hunting, would you? I only ask because that is the reality we are faced with in the west. If the wolves keep killing elk and deer at the rate they are, the tag limits will be decreased. This means that the people that have hunted their whole lives will loose that, not because of mis-management or over-hunting by man, but by not being allowed to manage the wolf population to preserve our heratige.

 

[Sully2]

I have a serious question for sully.

If wolves where YOU live had cut the numbers of the game that YOU have hunted YOUR whole life to a level that justified limiting YOUR chance of hunting, and you had a chance to "control" the wolf population through predator hunting, would you? I only ask because that is the reality we are faced with in the west. If the wolves keep killing elk and deer at the rate they are, the tag limits will be decreased. This means that the people that have hunted their whole lives will loose that, not because of mis-management or over-hunting by man, but by not being allowed to manage the wolf population to preserve our heratige.

People will lose the SPORT of hunting elk for example...or is it the SUBSISTENCE hunting you speak of?


If its sport then all I can say is "suck it up and get tough" like 90% of people in the USA have had to do in the last 25 years....If its killing elk because you need the meat to feed yourself and your family...then its ..
A) Your going to hunt harder...and
B) petition the people that CAN change the laws to do so...arguing and "debating" it on a public BB doesnt amount to jack squat

 

[Sully2]

Sully....I came down on you pretty hard for good reason but I apologize for getting personal and not just stating facts! This sort of propaganda that is being spread around by uniformed people is exactly why this country is doing so badly! (Sometimes it isn't a matter of being uniformed, but an intentional agenda,) which REALLY stirs me up! It causes foolishness in every area of our society affecting our very core (starting with impressionable kids) We have an obligation to do better! It creates a whole mentality of people being secondary to all of nature which puts people out of work, and in extreme cases, the people who think they are protecting animals become animals themselves (actually worse because animals are only instinctive). No one is suggesting that all wolves be erradicated, and believe me, that will never happen here in Idaho as it is an impossibility to ever hunt or trap them out. The only way it would happen is if people get so frustrated with the foolishness that they poison them off like the old ranchers did (with the help of the state)! PLEASE check the facts before you repeat things and try to listen with an open mind to some of the people on this forum! I have spent most of my 65 years in the woods as a forester and hunter and have seen the results of what wolves can do in a few short years! And no, I'm not very politically correct........Rich

If it IS all erroneous propaganda as you put it...where does one "learn it"..? You need to chat; petition...etc...ABC abd CBS ..etc..etc..to publish the TRUTH instead of diseminating lies. Hit the people in congress a few smacks also ( that totally useless pack of bast**** ) Name calling, etc. on a open BB doesnt accomplish jack squat. And if you have linked FACTS...then send them up the stack also to see who salutes...but NOT...publish links to story's about some nit wit woman out jogging in the dammed wilderness area...totally unprotected... and getting attacked by wolves; bears or even skunks.

 

[Sully2]

Sully2---The "facts" are that you are doing a lot of selective reading similar to the antis and not looking at the whole picture. Your comprehension isn't up to par either when you call out a person for not shooting the horse killing wolves when he wasn't even there to see them that next day! Slow down and read everything thoroughly that you've been asked to read to bring yourself up to date on the subject. If the wolves are left unchecked in the Park as is the plan, there will eventually be nothing left and they will go out looking for other places to survive and those places already have too many. The ones in the Park have now even learned how to kill Bison because the other animals have been decimated so badly. Who would have thought they would be able to take one of those animals down, but they are and it's been documented by people in the Park watching them do that. It wasn't weak and crippled ones they took down either.

I misread because of the comment about it happening "in front of his eyes"......He meant the farmer and NOT in front of his eyes. No need to condemn me for someone switching person in the same paragraph...his eyes...my eyes...their eyes...etc.

If "park animals" go outside the park...then shoot them. Thats what is done to bison on the norther ranges. If they cant herd them back in the park...KAPOWIE ...they get the bullet.

 

[coyotelite]

People will lose the SPORT of hunting elk for example...or is it the SUBSISTENCE hunting you speak of?


If its sport then all I can say is "suck it up and get tough" like 90% of people in the USA have had to do in the last 25 years....If its killing elk because you need the meat to feed yourself and your family...then its ..
A) Your going to hunt harder...and
B) petition the people that CAN change the laws to do so...arguing and "debating" it on a public BB doesnt amount to jack squat

I can see your answer is defensive and I can understand why. What is the point of saying hunt harder if you cant get a tag in the first place! I hunt for sport and meat. I enjoy hunting but also feed my family with what I kill. What the hell does "suck it up and get tough like 90% of people" have to do with a **** thing! This is where the wolf huggers like you lose credability. When It is possible to keep a wolf population AND maintain healthy, huntable populations of game, we should do it. When you speak of petitioning the people that can change the laws, that is what we are talking about here. The people that can change the laws are dropping the ball.

My question was for you personally. What would you do in the case of my last post. Would you be willing to hunt once every 5 years rather that every year so that the wolves could go un-checked? simple yes or no answer. It is not meant to be an attack, just a question to get your honest answer to the question we are faced with out here in the west?

 

[SavageShtr]

All I can say is WOW!!!

The maturity level of this debate has just gone down several notches!! I thought we were talking about the problems of the wolf populations of the NW not who can support their family or not without hunting. I thought that hunting was a part of the SHOOTING SPORTS that we all enjoy. There are people that hunt for trophies and there are people that hunt for meat. If the wolves are killing too many animals that it is threatening the SPORTSMANS ability to hunt then there needs to be something done. I can say that I don't live in the west I'm from PA and the hunting here do to miss management and coyote predation has taken its toll. I do not recall anyone saying that the wolf needs to be wiped out and that it only needs to be kept in check to make sure that the hunting SPORT that we enjoy today is there for our children in the future.

 

[coyotelite]

All I can say is WOW!!!

The maturity level of this debate has just gone down several notches!! I thought we were talking about the problems of the wolf populations of the NW not who can support their family or not without hunting. I thought that hunting was a part of the SHOOTING SPORTS that we all enjoy. There are people that hunt for trophies and there are people that hunt for meat. If the wolves are killing too many animals that it is threatening the SPORTSMANS ability to hunt then there needs to be something done. I can say that I don't live in the west I'm from PA and the hunting here do to miss management and coyote predation has taken its toll. I do not recall anyone saying that the wolf needs to be wiped out and that it only needs to be kept in check to make sure that the hunting SPORT that we enjoy today is there for our children in the future.

I was under that impression as well. kind of funny how the odd man out is the one that starts the personal attacks because his arguement has been destroyed by facts!