Winchester bore and cast bullets leading

I looked back at my notes and saw that I had the location of leading incorrect in my earlier post for this load:

I was using MBC buffalo#1, which is supposedly about 18bhn, 0.459, lubed with modified emmerts, with a duplex of 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2f OE. About an inch accuracy at 50 yards. 20 rounds shot. Leading mostly in last 3-4" of muzzle, but not a ton. The leading was very minor and in the throat. A bit in other spots, but very minor. Single cereal box was 0.025" thick, compressed ballpark 0.25".

So... Maybe if I knock that 7gr 4227 down to 3-4gr, I'll almost have it.


Dean, I know you say you have to have a hard bullet and be 0.003-0.004 (I think you said) over groove diameter to push it faster without leading... Can you get leading from being too much oversize? They didn't mention anything about that in the LASC info you posted. I like their site. Tons of information!!
 
So what happens when you shoot dead soft lead bullets without powder propellant? Very little to no Leading using dead soft lead with not a speck of lubricant of any type; lube actually increases my group size by at least 1/3 I shoot .25, .308, .458, .58 caliber bullets (oversized by .001 from the properly slugged bore) and/or Lead ball with 3,500 to 4,500 psi of air with muzzle velocities from the low 600 to almost 1,400fps. The bullets and ball weigh from 45 all the way up to 510 grain.
IF i find a LEADING problem in one of my bores I reach for the J-B NON Embedding bore cleaning compound and Lewis Lead remover if it is really affecting accuracy and that doesn't happen often and never from some of them thus far. I use a bronze brush with the J-B since my airgun barrels are much softer Steel than a firearm barrel is made with. The easier machining steel as well as the skills of my airgun smith are such that my bores look like a mirror compared to those depicted by the OP.
That leads me to believe it may take J-B Paste and then the J-B Non Embedding to get similar polished bore conditions on a firearm bore steel.
My experience makes me believe the OP's Leading is from over hard Lead, oversized/undersized bullets, or bypass gas cutting, or perhaps a combination of them, already well covered by other posters.
Dead soft Lead shot from Big Bore airguns has humanely taken all of North Americas large game animals as well as exotics up to 2,000 pound Cape Buffalo.
 
😳
I see some good responses and some from those that know little of CB's.

I admit to not being a BP shooter. However I have run in circles with those that are.
Why a duplex load?
Just asking as I have seen some amazing results with BP in 45-70,45-90 and 45-110, al with nothing more than BP.

You want a REAL mess? Shoot a jacketed will only smear it out into a thin layer and make it worse.

You keep mentioning you slugged it. I suspect it is larger towards the muzzle than at the breech. It needs to be slugged at both ends. If you go from the breech and it is .465, it could be tapered to .468 or more at the muzzle.
Check out Veral Smiths thoughts.

Hard bullets are not a real answer to leading.
Size is king period.
Store bought cast bullets are made to sell and that is about it. Oh sure lots of folks are perfectly happy with them.
I expect jacketed accuracy from anything I shoot cast out of , revolvers or rifles makes no difference.
 

Good article on leading and casting. Explains it far better than I was able to. Hope it helps.​
The Los Angeles Handgun, Rifle, Air Pistol, Hunter/Field Pistol Silhouette Club

Return to the index to LASC
A wide range of bullet casting information

Reprinted With Permission Of Jim Taylor and leverguns.com

Leading Defined
By Jim Taylor​

Leading is: Deposits of bullet alloy that have been smeared into the surface of the gun's bore. In extreme cases, it will build to the point where the rifling is completely choked with deposits and the barrel appears to be smooth-bored. Once leading begins, it will have a tendency to strip alloy from the next bullet which builds the deposit with the next shot. Each successive bullet fired will "iron" the lead into the surface of the bore and make it more difficult to remove the deposit.
Chamber and Forcing Cone Leading
This is normally caused by shooting a bullet that is too hard (BHN too high) for the velocities used. Either use a softer alloy, or increase the charge (within published loading data, of course!) to correct this problem. This can also be caused by shooting a bullet that is too small in diameter. Revolvers will lead in the chamber and forcing cone while closed breech weapons will lead in the chamber and the beginning of the rifling area. Have the cylinders measured for revolvers and size the bullets to them, not the bore (unless the bore is larger than the chambers, in which case the problem will have to be corrected by a gunsmith or the factory) and measure the bore in closed breech weapons to determine proper bullet diameter. Rule of thumb says the bullet should be .001" larger than the bore or equal to (or very slightly larger than) cylinder diameter in a revolver. If the alloy is soft enough, you can get away with a slight "push fit" in a revolver cylinder, but certainly the bullet should be large enough to not fall through the small diameter portion of the cylinder freely!
Breech Leading
This is lead fouling that begins in the rifled portion of the bore, but after the chamber or forcing cone, and extends into the bore for a distance of up to several inches. This is normally caused by shooting a bullet that has a low BHN (too soft) for the pressures or velocities used. The bullet will actually strip as it enters the rifling as it does not have the strength to properly engage and begin rotation due to the forces pushing it through the barrel. It doesn't mean it's a bad bullet alloy, it just means you are driving it too hard. If you want to go faster, you will need a stronger alloy with a higher BHN number. Alloys must be used which fit the application. There is no such thing as a "magic" alloy that works for every single application!
Bore Leading, Muzzle End
When lead fouling occurs at the muzzle end, you have run out of bullet lubricant. Either use a better lube, or more of it to correct the problem. If you can, use a bullet with more, or deeper and/or wider lube grooves. After firing a box of cast bullets, say 20 to 50 rounds, there could be a lube "star" on the muzzle. This indicates that there is simply left over lubricant and the bullet exited the muzzle with plenty of lube. If, however, you find a lead "star" instead you need to try something different as the bullet ran out of lube. You may be able to simply reduce the charge (lower velocity) and correct this. The alternatives are use a better lube or a different bullet design that can carry more lube. As an example, there are .45-70 Govt. 405 grain bullets on the market with only a single lube groove. Barrels over 16"-18" long using this single lube groove design bullet will exhibit muzzle leading after only a few shots! Frankly, the only reason this bullet exists is that it is simple to manufacture!
Bore Leading, Entire Bore
Normally, this is caused by shooting a bullet that is too small in diameter for the bore. If the bullet doesn't seal the bore, gas will be able to escape past the bullet causing a cutting action similar to the way a cutting torch cuts steel. By the way, gas cutting will only occur if gas can flow. If it flows, what you have in effect is leak. The bullet is not sealing the bore.

The burning propellant will not melt the base of a lead bullet! There is simply too much physical mass to heat to the melting point of lead (about 600-700F) in the short time a bullet is exposed to the propellant gas to bring it to it's melting point! If you want proof, examine wads used in shotguns or black powder cartridge loads after firing. They may show slight darkening, but won't be consumed in flames either! If the burning powder won't melt the plastic or burn up the cardboard, why would it melt a bullet base? The answer is, it can't.

Some years ago my Dad and I ran tests to see if heat could actually melt the bullet bases. We used .357 and .44 Magnums as the test vehicles. To the bullet bases we glued flash paper, the kind magicians use. No matter which powder we used, we were never able to ignite the flash paper. We also put low temperature wax on the bases of the bullets and again were unable to get any wax to melt. As was said already, if you can't melt the wax you sure won't melt lead.

Damaged bullet bases are caused from other things, principally incorrect bullet fit to the bore or a bad bullet to begin with!

Optimum Accuracy

Cast bullet accuracy is directly related to the pressure levels your cartridge is loaded to. If the operating pressure is too low relative to the bullet's BHN (hardness), you will not achieve obturation and the bore will not seal. This will cause gas leakage and erosion (gas cutting) that causes leading at low pressure and low velocity! Optimum accuracy occurs at a point just below the pressure levels that induce breech leading for a given bullet alloy. In other words, if you are shooting an excessively hard bullet for Cowboy Action pressure levels, you will get leading, usually in the forcing cone or chamber area.

Optimum Bullets

Use a bullet of proper alloy for the velocity you are shooting. Many shooters today are using bullets much harder than is called for. In addition use the best lubrication you can get. These three things, proper fit to the bore, proper hardness for the velocity/pressure, and proper lube can make shooting cast bullets an enjoyable time instead of a headache.

Webmaster's note - much of the above information was originally published on the old Mid-Kansas Cast Bullet website. Unfortunately they are no longer in business. There are a number of good cast bullet providers available if you do not cast your own. Those that I personally know are: MONTANA BULLET WORKS - CAST PERFORMANCE - BEAR TOOTH BULLETS. There are many others also, but I know these people.​

Jim Taylor

Very interesting article, I've been casting for almost half a century and still picked up some unknown info in this article. The OP never stated if he was using gas checks, but after many years of shooting cast bullets I'm still on the fence with them. For the most part I can usually achieve the same degree of accuracy without them, but I can drive a bullet faster with the gas check and still maintain the accuracy without leading.
However adding a gas check makes one at the mercy of a purchased item that can, at times like this be tough to acquire. I have an old NEI mould that casts a 30 cal. 165 grain GC bullet that I have driven to 2800 FPS in 3 different .308 rifles and to 2600 inn 2 .308 handguns without any trace of leading. Peak accuracy was achieved at a little less velocity , but point is that jacketed bullet velocities can be achieved with cast bullets.
RCBS has a 405 and a 350 grain gas check mould in 45 caliber that I have used in a few 45 caliber rifles with excellent results. The 405 hits with authority on both ends , and I wouldn't recommend long bench sessions with it. I have taken both deer and bear with it and it does a fine job. I did have a 500 grain version of the same bullet, but just couldn't take the punishment of developing a load for it. If you have a heavy enough rifle it could be a good option also.
 
😳
I see some good responses and some from those that know little of CB's.

I admit to not being a BP shooter. However I have run in circles with those that are.
Why a duplex load?
Just asking as I have seen some amazing results with BP in 45-70,45-90 and 45-110, al with nothing more than BP.

You want a REAL mess? Shoot a jacketed will only smear it out into a thin layer and make it worse.

You keep mentioning you slugged it. I suspect it is larger towards the muzzle than at the breech. It needs to be slugged at both ends. If you go from the breech and it is .465, it could be tapered to .468 or more at the muzzle.
Check out Veral Smiths thoughts.

Hard bullets are not a real answer to leading.
Size is king period.
Store bought cast bullets are made to sell and that is about it. Oh sure lots of folks are perfectly happy with them.
I expect jacketed accuracy from anything I shoot cast out of , revolvers or rifles makes no difference.
I certainly don't know much! But it's fun trying to fix that.

I used a duplex load to keep the bore cleaner and not have to wipe between shots or use a blow tube .

I did slug just the muzzle. It is the same as what I get when pushing from chamber to muzzle, 0.4565-0.457.

I'll do one at just the breech
 
Very interesting article, I've been casting for almost half a century and still picked up some unknown info in this article. The OP never stated if he was using gas checks, but after many years of shooting cast bullets I'm still on the fence with them. For the most part I can usually achieve the same degree of accuracy without them, but I can drive a bullet faster with the gas check and still maintain the accuracy without leading.
However adding a gas check makes one at the mercy of a purchased item that can, at times like this be tough to acquire. I have an old NEI mould that casts a 30 cal. 165 grain GC bullet that I have driven to 2800 FPS in 3 different .308 rifles and to 2600 inn 2 .308 handguns without any trace of leading. Peak accuracy was achieved at a little less velocity , but point is that jacketed bullet velocities can be achieved with cast bullets.
RCBS has a 405 and a 350 grain gas check mould in 45 caliber that I have used in a few 45 caliber rifles with excellent results. The 405 hits with authority on both ends , and I wouldn't recommend long bench sessions with it. I have taken both deer and bear with it and it does a fine job. I did have a 500 grain version of the same bullet, but just couldn't take the punishment of developing a load for it. If you have a heavy enough rifle it could be a good option also.

I have not used gas checks and don't really want to. I'd rather drop velocity... I like to keep it simple :)
 
Tac-O, I realize that you are trying to avoid checks, and with the component shortage .....checks are also hard to get. However, though I've never done it, their are quite a few cast bullet shooters that make their own checks. Apparently, it's not that difficult.....with many using aluminum beer/soda pop cans! Likely worth much more than recycled aluminum! ;) memtb
 
Unless you are trying to replicate the 45-90-300 Express load, you'll never get near 2000 fps.
 
Yea, I just don't want to mess with gas checks because it's another tool I'd need to crimp them on and another step in the process. At some point I'm sure I'll get an itch to really bump up the speed. But for now, I'm fine with BP speeds and hopefully I can get my duplex to work to keep the barrel cleaner without too much leading!
 
I would honestly try eliminating the duplex load, I know that fouling will be an issue, so make sure you use a good over powder wad, but just to see if it helps with the leading. Are you getting a decent lube star at the muzzle? What kind of lube are you using? I shoot a lot of cast bullets, I have gone to powder coated for everything except for my Sharps and BP.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 4 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top