Win Model 70 or Browning A Bolt in 300wm

[MudRunner2005]

I would be willing to. I'm not that closed-minded, so I might just have to. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be a stick in the mud, I was just trying to get an accurate reasoning. But it is good we can have a civil discussion, which should also help with the OP making his decision. Glad we could debate and still remain friends at the end of the day.

 

[Jammer65]

Agreed

 

[etisll40]

I liked the debate, almost a at fight, but lots of good stuff said. We love our firearms don't we. Be safe...

 

[MudRunner2005]

It may have sounded like a fight, but it wasn't I assure you. I had a grin on my face the whole time. Debates are fun to me.

That's what makes the firearms world so great. 2 different people prefer 2 different style actions, and different ammo, and different stocks, and the list goes on. That's what makes it so much fun (to me) is figuring out what your gun likes best, and how you can do little things to tweak it to make it better. No matter what brand or style action you choose to go with, there is tons of good info and parts out there to always make it better...Be it Remington, Weatherby, Winchester, Ruger, Browing, Blaser, Tikka, Sako, Howa, etc...

 

[Team Roper]

Thanks! Let me know!

The 338 mag has 3.64" of clearance inside. I meausured mine last night.

 

[ardenne]

I liked the debate, almost a at fight, but lots of good stuff said. We love our firearms don't we. Be safe...

I liked it too Anyways, at the end, we all love firearms, especially rifles

Want to thank you all guys for giving your precious experiences and ideas.

I've started to figure out which model to choose, but love to hear some more, specifically about their long - range performance...

 

[lloydsmale]

Ill argue this a bit. The snipers in our various miltary branches are elite soldiers. Money isnt a big factor in the equipment they buy and use. They have used rem 700s for years because they have been proven. Not because someone got a good deal at walmart on a bunch of them. If that was the case im sure the bmgs they use wouldnt be barrets and the nightforce scopes they use would be replaced by tascos. For the most part specail forces decide themselves what equiptment they want and use and if a winchester or browning was felt to be better for there uses theyd have it. Granted they do modify them for there use but its still the best action to start with. Kind of like if you wanted to win a saturday night drag race. Would you buy a camero and modify it or a gremlin? both could win but you start with the best raw material you can get. Ask 50 snipers if theyd trade you there 700s for 70s or abolts or control round fed mausers and id be awful suprised if youd find even one that would go for it. Bottom line is in about any competitve shooting sport that uses bolt rifles remingtons are seen on the line 5 to 1 over any other actions. Id guess theres a good reason for that and it wasnt because of a clearance sale at walmart last week.

Yes, really! The issue of Remingtons being used for police and military sniper rifles is one of institutional momentum. That is what has been used since the 60s and there are a lot of replacement parts available for them. Good thing too becuase there is much about them that needs improving. Their design was centered around manufacturing cost, not performance. There is little about the Remington that is all that impressive. Little wonder that it is usually cheaper to buy a custom action that uses the Remington footprint than it is to do all the work necessary to bring one up to high performance standards.

As to the characteristics that make the Winchester (and its FN counterpart) vastly superior, they are:

1. Non Rotating extractor that provides a dramatic improvement in extraction power over the nearest competitor (excluding the Ruger 77 and Mauser variants). Nothing like the cute little thing that Remington uses and the aftermarket thrives on replacement options goint to an M-16 style of extractor
2. Fixed Ejector that provides absolute reliablity over the spring loaded plungers of most other manufaturers. A fixed ejector also give the operator the option of manually removing the brass from the action port, dropping it just outside with a easy nudge to the rear of the bolt stroke(for reloaders that dont like to have to chase down their brass), or decisive ejection dependant upon how hard you stroke the bolt.
3. Controlled round feed operation is smooth and positive, giving the operator the ability have complete control over the cartridge during the feeding process. It permits reliable feeding at all possible angles of orientation. Pretty much every serious repeating dangerous game rifle employs CRF for one simple reason, it works when the chips are down and your life may be in jeopardy if it doesnt. Same reason why the Mauser action was so prevalant in the last two world wars. Mauser actions dominated the sporter market and spawned a lot of post war variants copying its form and function, the Win 70 being one.
4. 3 position bolt mounted safety. One of the most copied safeties in the industry. In the safe position the firing pin is pulled away from the trigger sear and locked into position. The mechanism is virtually foolproof and works reliably in extremely adverse conditions of temperature and grime.
5. Simple, reliable trigger that is easily inspected, cleaned and adjusted
6. The recoil lug is integral to the action, not a sandwiched piece between barrel and action. Even the heaviest aftermarket tactical Remington recoil lugs are pretty tame compared to that of the M-70's.

While the Browning is a decent piece and the Remington passable enough to get the job done, they dont hold a candle to a Winchester/FN action. Period.

 

[Jammer65]

Ill argue this a bit. The snipers in our various miltary branches are elite soldiers. Money isnt a big factor in the equipment they buy and use. They have used rem 700s for years because they have been proven. Not because someone got a good deal at walmart on a bunch of them. If that was the case im sure the bmgs they use wouldnt be barrets and the nightforce scopes they use would be replaced by tascos. For the most part specail forces decide themselves what equiptment they want and use and if a winchester or browning was felt to be better for there uses theyd have it. Granted they do modify them for there use but its still the best action to start with. Kind of like if you wanted to win a saturday night drag race. Would you buy a camero and modify it or a gremlin? both could win but you start with the best raw material you can get. Ask 50 snipers if theyd trade you there 700s for 70s or abolts or control round fed mausers and id be awful suprised if youd find even one that would go for it. Bottom line is in about any competitve shooting sport that uses bolt rifles remingtons are seen on the line 5 to 1 over any other actions. Id guess theres a good reason for that and it wasnt because of a clearance sale at walmart last week.

My comment about being one of cost was referring to the design level of the manufacturing process, not the end user cost of the system. When the Marine corp was planning what was to be their first official sniper rifle in the early 60's (M40-A1), the Winchester was the action that was in most use and most preferred. What changed that was the redesign that Winchester did in 1964 that went to a conventional push feed system. That along with other quality control factors that became an issue with the New Haven plant at that time was the deciding factor in choosing the Reminton. Had Winchster not made that move, the lexicon of the Remington 700 would simply never have existed. Naturally Winchster didnt stand still on the quality control issue and with the advent of CNC production machinery, was able to convert back to the classic CRF style for the model 70. Unfortunately for Winchester, the ship had sailed and Remington had the momentum and the aftermarket parts base captured. Winchester 70 and FN bolt actions (same thing) are now being made in a state of the art facility in Coumbia South Carolina where many of the US military machine guns and other weapons are manufactured.

If you go to any national level precision rifle shoot, you will have to look far down the finishers list to find an actual Remington. The custom actions that build on their footprint have long ago left the actual 700s in the dust. The realization has been made that a sporting action modified for sniper use has run its course. If you look at the finalists for the new SOCOM solicitation for the next generation sniper rifle that is currently in process, there is only one that is not a purpose built, designed from the ground up for the purposes of being a sniper rifle (Surgeon). Even Reminton has abandon the 700 with their MSR entry.

The knowledge base of the sniper community has dramatically increased as a result of the last ten years in the wars on terror. That knowledge includes tactics, optics, as well as weapons. The US in pretty much the only country that deploys with rifles that are esssentially modified sporting rifle actions. The time is coming where that too will change. The current administrations hostility to the military wont speed that up any, but in time, it will take place. Even in the civilian competition market, the AI, Sako and other purpose built sniper rilfe systems are being recognized for tank like durability while retaining near benchrest accuracy.