Who uses a kestrel?

[yobuck]

Yobuck: Optical coincidence rangefinders like the Barr & Stroud worked ok - but their accuracy diminishes with range. There is just no way they are going to match a laser unless the conditions are such that the laser doesn't work (fog, snow, etc).

There is a reason the US Army moved to a Yittrium Argon Gas laser from an optical coincidence rangefinder (used by the M60 tank) in the 80s when they fielded the M1 tank.

Well first off, im not advocating for a modern day hunter to buy a range finder that is 50 years or more old.
But what i am saying is that the one i still own is always with me in my vehicle when im hunting.
Because it always works, and most of the others dont always work.
Yes, i prefer using my Leica lazer, for obvious reasons.
As for the accuracy factor, at least for distances up to a mile, they have proven to be spot on with my chart when shooting.
And if you have a rangefinder that matches your chart, then thats all you need, or at least should need.
I dont make charts that go beyond a mile.
Reason is im interested in hunting long range, not just shooting long range.
So therefore i never shoot beyond that distance, and very rarely even that far.
I frankly consider it to be a waste of both time and ammo for what amounts to nothing more than an ego bump, unless of coarse its involved with some type of competetion.

 

[yobuck]

Well we were talking knowing limitations. And the 6.5 reference was just an example that sometimes you need more gun. You might want to read that again, no where did I say that was a hunting scenario.
And as far as 7mm not being a 1200+ yard hunting caliber, I'd just say, as long as you have 1000#'s of energy on target your GTG. With any caliber. Attached is my 7mag ballistic data at 7500 ft alt(where I hunt in WY), 29.90 baro, 50°, 50% RH with a 180 gr vld-h. So I'd disagree that some 7mm aren't 1200+ yard capable. It's good to 1420 yards, but I'd limit myself to probably half that depending on conditions. IMO nobody should be taking shots over 1000 yards on game. So a 7mag is enough gun at altitude imo. I don't have one but a 6.5x300 wby mag or 6.5 Sherman mag would probably get r done at 1200+ as well I'd guess.

Certainly hunting in the higher elevations will bring about better performance with all cartridges.
But the differences will be somewhat marginal, not major.
Regardless of any of that, animals die as a result of tissue damage which causes blood loss, and not by the energy of the bullet.
Same reason an archery hit animal rarely drops on the spot, but instead runs off before it dies.
My longest kill was a whitetail buck at 1200 yards with a 7x 300 Wetherby wildcat using a 162 gr bullet at about 3400 FPS.
I decided right then and there that i wouldnt shoot at another at that distance with that cartidge.
When you find bullets that didnt exit the animal, its time to rethink the distance, or the cartridge.
But i also know several others who have killed them at longer distances with that cartridge.
I know for sure that one was a head shot, which he admitted was just b s luck.
I have also watched thru very good 40 power 100 mm tripod mounted binoculars as my son shot at a buck at 1300 yards with a 338x 416 Rigby sending a 300 gr bullet at about 3050 FPS.
I watched the bullet hit the deer, right behind the shoulder.
The deer never even flinched, and just walked away as not even touched a distance of at least 50 feet. My son shot again and the deer dropped. Both bullets had hit within 6" of each other. The second shot no doubt wasent even necessary.
But obviously the deer just wasent ready to die with the first one.
Whats the remaining energy of that bullet at that distance shot from that gun?
Next question, without someone observing through good optics, how many hunters might have written that off as a miss?
And thats not the only one ive watched get hit with a 300 gr 338 and walk away. One was at 850 yards. Mind you now, they all died, but not before they were ready to die.

 

[Barehandlineman11]

I run 5700 just to verify wind and direction, altitude and temp

 

[SSG Graybush]

Certainly hunting in the higher elevations will bring about better performance with all cartridges.
But the differences will be somewhat marginal, not major.
Regardless of any of that, animals die as a result of tissue damage which causes blood loss, and not by the energy of the bullet.
Same reason an archery hit animal rarely drops on the spot, but instead runs off before it dies.
My longest kill was a whitetail buck at 1200 yards with a 7x 300 Wetherby wildcat using a 162 gr bullet at about 3400 FPS.
I decided right then and there that i wouldnt shoot at another at that distance with that cartidge.
When you find bullets that didnt exit the animal, its time to rethink the distance, or the cartridge.
But i also know several others who have killed them at longer distances with that cartridge.
I know for sure that one was a head shot, which he admitted was just b s luck.
I have also watched thru very good 40 power 100 mm tripod mounted binoculars as my son shot at a buck at 1300 yards with a 338x 416 Rigby sending a 300 gr bullet at about 3050 FPS.
I watched the bullet hit the deer, right behind the shoulder.
The deer never even flinched, and just walked away as not even touched a distance of at least 50 feet. My son shot again and the deer dropped. Both bullets had hit within 6" of each other. The second shot no doubt wasent even necessary.
But obviously the deer just wasent ready to die with the first one.
Whats the remaining energy of that bullet at that distance shot from that gun?
Next question, without someone observing through good optics, how many hunters might have written that off as a miss?
And thats not the only one ive watched get hit with a 300 gr 338 and walk away. One was at 850 yards. Mind you now, they all died, but not before they were ready to die.

Most bullet manufacturers set minimum fps for their bullets to perform/open up at 1500-1800 fps. Which is usually about 1000-1200 #'s of energy for non magnum rounds, more for mags with heavier bullets. The wound channel is caused by the bullets energy, not just its mushroom/pedals. The archery analysis would be like a full metal jacket, the animal is gonna die, just not bang flop. Minimal energy dump into the target.
A 45 acp is like 475 #'s of energy at the muzzle. That 1300 yard shot with a 300 gr Berger EH at 1000 ft of altitude would still have ~2087 #'s of energy at ~1770 fps on impact. So those bullets should have fully opened and probably exited if broadside. People constantly argue about Long range shots, solids vs Bergers vs match bullets, etc.
E=MC2. So increasing mass with less speed or less mass and more speed is equal. Until you add in the fact that in ballistics more mass usual increases bc. And the added bc efficiency allows that heavier mass to retain energy longer even if it starts slower.
But saying it's not energy that kills is incorrect imo. Energy causes all that damage. Whether it's the bullet cutting a hole or organ damage around it.
Here's 2 examples. Shot a button buck(thought it was a doe in low light) with a 450 BM at ~40 yards quartering hard away, hit a bit back just behind the ribs, exited mid ribs on the off side. The wound channel was so devastating that it literally blew the bottom of his stomach open about 5-6". That was energy not bullet sprawl.
My 270 wsm causes so much damage am going to a solid (LRX) this year. Last doe I shot broadside at 100-120 yards hit center of lungs, straight through with a 2.5 inch exit, the energy was so much that it busted the diaphragm and split open her stomach putting contents everywhere. She bang flopped. Made it a not so pleasant gutting job. All that damage was not caused by the bullet itself, but the energy transferred from the bullet. Look at any ballistic gel test. Those large wound channel cavities / tissue damage are caused by energy, and the bullet itself. Berger says it designs its bullets to shrapnel and dump all energy into the target causing massive organ damage. But in the case of my 270 wsm at close range it was too much. And 2 holes are better then one imo. And nowadays you can get high bc solids. So am switching.

 

[406ANGLER]

Berger says it designs its bullets to shrapnel and dump all energy into the target causing massive organ damage.

I have always had the opinion that this is nothing more than fancy marketing strategy.

Berger's marketing team: "we designed them for 90% energy transfer in the first few inches"

What I hear: "we figured out how to market our thin-jacketed cup and core target bullets as hunting bullets even though they suffer catastrophic failure when they hit an animal"

 

[SSG Graybush]

I have always had the opinion that this is nothing more than fancy marketing strategy.

Berger's marketing team: "we designed them for 90% energy transfer in the first few inches"

What I hear: "we figured out how to market our thin-jacketed cup and core target bullets as hunting bullets even though they suffer catastrophic failure when they hit an animal"

I shot a muley buck at 60 yards with a 270 wsm with a 130 gr vld-h starting at 3089 fps, that was quarter hard to me. Hit the shoulder, destroyed the whole shoulder, and put a 3 inch hole through the ribs into the chest and damaged the lungs. He went 30 yards. But no exit. More distance and a elks shoulder, maybe it doesn't get to the lungs, idk? But now that there's high bc solids there's no reason to chance it.

 

[yobuck]

I have always had the opinion that this is nothing more than fancy marketing strategy.

Berger's marketing team: "we designed them for 90% energy transfer in the first few inches"

What I hear: "we figured out how to market our thin-jacketed cup and core target bullets as hunting bullets even though they suffer catastrophic failure when they hit an animal"

Well ive given several real life personal experience examples of how animals react after being well hit with several different good cartridges beyond 1000 yards.
Id be interested in hearing about other real life experiences as well at similar distances.
After more than 50 years of watching animals die after being hit in good locations with very good long range cartridges, one is bound to have opinions other than those gotten from ballistic data alone.
As for the so called target bullets, weve never used anything but target bullets, and so do all the many other long range hunters i know and have known over the many years ive been involved.
As for the solid bullets, ive never used them, at least for hunting.
Cutting Edge Bullets are made about 1 hour away from our camp. I visited there about 10 years ago and was shown around their very nice then new facility by the owner.
I asked about using his bullets in my yet to be completed 338.
He asked the twist of the barrel, and i told him it was a 10 twist.
He just shook his head no, and said you might be able to use our 250 grain bullet, but even thats a maybe.
So i bought a box of 50 which is how they are packaged, and he was right, they didnt work well in my gun, nor did they work well in my sons gun as well, and his is a 9 twist.
So as for saying what bullet you intend using, at least for long range, you will use the ones that shoot well in your gun, period.

 

[44-40]

I have had the Krestrel Link for several years cost about $800. No need to take it hunting most all my shots will be inside 100 yds for big game.
Follow directions, chronograph your load, for ave fps, input the bullet BC ...confirm at 650 yds with "your" rangefinder, adjust bullet BC. Test at 1000 yards. Spin it around , get wind velocity point at target press button, get your elevation and windage adjustments. Mine rifle # 1 information 308 Win 200 SMK average muzzle velocity 2865 fps
Dial up scope 7.29 mil wind L 1.4 to 1.6. 1000 yds 10 mph wind 7:30 Shoot it, ..it worked. On target with center hits...don't use it much.

 

[yobuck]

There is an old cliche pertaining to fishermen and the lures they use.
And it is for a fact very true.
50 years ago the term long range hunting didnt exist in the minds of most experienced hunters.
When it did start to become something they at least had heard about, many of them were opposed to it.
For no other reason than they were totally ignorant as to how it was done.
But still others saw and recognized its potential, and saw opportunities to capitalize on it.
Make up your minds that we have been being trained to follow the same path as the fishermen.

 

[44-40]

There is an old cliche pertaining to fishermen and the lures they use.
And it is for a fact very true.
50 years ago the term long range hunting didnt exist in the minds of most experienced hunters.
When it did start to become something they at least had heard about, many of them were opposed to it.
For no other reason than they were totally ignorant as to how it was done.
But still others saw and recognized its potential, and saw opportunities to capitalize on it.
Make up your minds that we have been being trained to follow the same path as the fishermen.

Long range hunting and snipers are as old as rifles. Billy Dixon a buffalo hunter killed an Indian chief at over 1500 yds one shot 50 cal sharps at Adobe wells. Buffalo hunters slaughtered millions of Buffalo, many at long range. In 1879 Sandy Hook US Army shoots the 45-70 500gr to 2500 and 3200 yards connecting on the 6 foot bullseye with Springfield rifles at that range...in 1879 declared the 45-70 good for 1900 yd engagements. Open sights, no rear rest, barrel rest and a 7 lb trigger pull and several rifles from Springfield were used...these guys were excellent marksman. Old military mauser had a ladder graduations to 2000 meters. Winchester has ladder sights for the old anemic 44-40 lever gun as men of the black powder era insisted on long rang capabilities of rifles for military and civilian use...2000 yard engagements in the desert sands in British colonies. SGT York WW1... Long rang engagement is not new, and commonly used to wipe out the game herds, especially Buffalo. Custer even shot LR with his 50-70 to kill antelope to feed the 7th Calvary. Long range shooters of today, including me, have accomplished nothing new...and those old guys were real marksman, no scopes, no smokless powder, no electronic gagets, or yardage measurements. So our accomplishments are rather dismal by comparison. Just the facts...but I'd like to think that, I too, made a few good shots...but with modern equipment and components, ..reality from the past says, ...not really. Try hitting a bullseye open sights 2500 to 3200 yds Springfield 45-70 500 gr lead, with black powder, no rear rest, 7 lb trigger, as was accomplished in 1879. Those Quigley type guys really did exist...For me, too old to even focus on the open sights comes to mind...nothing new about long range hunting, or sniping...just better equipment to help more be successful.

 

[Allen Lone wolf]

I hear what you are saying. Technology has made us, (me) somewhat lazy. Letting all the gadgets do the work for us. Yes it takes a certain amount of skill to master some of the technology but I think the art of tracking, raw marksmanship, and strategy of out smarting the game we pursue has been somewhat lost in all of it. I guess that is one of the reasons I love bowhunting with my recurve bow and hand gun hunting with open sights so much. It helps me keep those skills sharpened up. Trying to keep from being seen or smelled.when it all comes together it's very satisfying. You never know when or if I might need them.

 

[44-40]

I hear what you are saying. Technology has made us, (me) somewhat lazy. Letting all the gadgets do the work for us. Yes it takes a certain amount of skill to master some of the technology but I think the art of tracking, raw marksmanship, and strategy of out smarting the game we pursue has been somewhat lost in all of it. I guess that is one of the reasons I love bowhunting with my recurve bow and hand gun hunting with open sights so much. It helps me keep those skills sharpened up. Trying to keep from being seen or smelled.when it all comes together it's very satisfying. You never know when or if I might need them.

Yes, bowhunting, brings back a different, almost ancient, skill set, passed on between father and son down through generations, survival, tracking, reading sign, studying the animals habits. Providing much excitement and very close encounters...and your mistakes and missed opportunities and screw up's , are your learning curve. A never ending education,.. bow hunting. Did a bunch of handgun hunting too, back when the 44 mag was a new thing. Grew up on Elmer Keith articles, and instruction, and said O'Connor was a wimp, and his 270 was a good coyote gun...Sixguns by Keith, outdated, but what isn't? A fun read.

 

[Allen Lone wolf]

Yes! I read every article I could get my hands on and couldn't wait for the next one. I've loaded and fired a few of those Keith loads back in the day. They were quite potent.

 

[yobuck]

Long range hunting and snipers are as old as rifles. Billy Dixon a buffalo hunter killed an Indian chief at over 1500 yds one shot 50 cal sharps at Adobe wells. Buffalo hunters slaughtered millions of Buffalo, many at long range. In 1879 Sandy Hook US Army shoots the 45-70 500gr to 2500 and 3200 yards connecting on the 6 foot bullseye with Springfield rifles at that range...in 1879 declared the 45-70 good for 1900 yd engagements. Open sights, no rear rest, barrel rest and a 7 lb trigger pull and several rifles from Springfield were used...these guys were excellent marksman. Old military mauser had a ladder graduations to 2000 meters. Winchester has ladder sights for the old anemic 44-40 lever gun as men of the black powder era insisted on long rang capabilities of rifles for military and civilian use...2000 yard engagements in the desert sands in British colonies. SGT York WW1... Long rang engagement is not new, and commonly used to wipe out the game herds, especially Buffalo. Custer even shot LR with his 50-70 to kill antelope to feed the 7th Calvary. Long range shooters of today, including me, have accomplished nothing new...and those old guys were real marksman, no scopes, no smokless powder, no electronic gagets, or yardage measurements. So our accomplishments are rather dismal by comparison. Just the facts...but I'd like to think that, I too, made a few good shots...but with modern equipment and components, ..reality from the past says, ...not really. Try hitting a bullseye open sights 2500 to 3200 yds Springfield 45-70 500 gr lead, with black powder, no rear rest, 7 lb trigger, as was accomplished in 1879. Those Quigley type guys really did exist...For me, too old to even focus on the open sights comes to mind...nothing new about long range hunting, or sniping...just better equipment to help more be successful.

It also goes to show that there were as good numbers of BSers back then as there are today. lol