Who is using the Barnes Triple Shocks? / Like them?

[rost495]

What I fail to see is how a barnes thats shed a petal or four, would be any different than a lead core bullet thats peeled back, encouters same bone and tears its edges off. It will continue to penetrate, possibly not in a straight line as the core and jacket may well bend. But I don't think its gonna try to expand further or else it wouldn't be a controlled expansion projectile. If that is the case, then its no different than the X going through. FMJ as you say.

Any thoughts?

BTW you can bet that more animals are wounded by the non X bullets than will ever be by the actual X bullets. Simply by a fact of numbers and math. And possibly added to the odds factor by the fact that anyone that takes the time to work with and shoot X bullets is probably beyond the average rifleman.

Jeff

 

[Paul Wyatt]

[ QUOTE ]
What I fail to see is how a barnes thats shed a petal or four, would be any different than a lead core bullet thats peeled back, encouters same bone and tears its edges off. It will continue to penetrate, possibly not in a straight line as the core and jacket may well bend. But I don't think its gonna try to expand further or else it wouldn't be a controlled expansion projectile. If that is the case, then its no different than the X going through. FMJ as you say.

Any thoughts?

BTW you can bet that more animals are wounded by the non X bullets than will ever be by the actual X bullets. Simply by a fact of numbers and math. And possibly added to the odds factor by the fact that anyone that takes the time to work with and shoot X bullets is probably beyond the average rifleman.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, brother. Barnes is not the only solid copper slug on the market. What about FailSafes (expandable potion all copper), Lost River Ballistics, North Fork, etc. etc. Goodgrouper are you saying that it is just Barnes that fail to open or is it all solid metal slugs? I have read nothing but praise for the North Fork. I have taken game with both 30 caliber and 338 caliber FailSafe slugs and find them to be on a par with the Barnes - excellent! I am trying out the North Forks and LBR's. There is something else you need to consider and that is the environmental kooks. I see the day that lead slugs will be attacked by them as an environmental pollutant - adding heavy metals to the biosphere. Remember lead shot???
Your statement "what about that" with reference to the Barnes employees? I will share with you what I think of those people - Randy and Coni Brooks are much more tolerant employers than I would be. I wouldn't care rather an employee used the product or not, but I'll be *%^> if I would tolerate them cashing my pay-check and then denegrading the product that I was paying them to produce.

 

[Guest]

well anyway , I got a box of 130gr Tripple shocks here that are gonna get loaded as well as some 150gr Hornady SST interbonds , gonna do a little load work tonight and try them out on some feral dogs tonight or tomorrow , I'll post back with results.
Their all getting molyed right now.

 

[7Rumloader]

I am not arguing that you have made longer kills only that my experience with them be it 50 paces or to the 612 yards that I made my longest kill at they worked good for me. Yor experience was not that good with them as we can tell but I have not wounded an animal with them yet! I have on the other hand lost an animal with one other bullet and it was a bonded core but I aint downing them Hell I still use bonded core bullets just not that brand. I commend you on your marksmanship and understand you have different experiences and opinions thats what this forum is all about telling your side and experiences in different situations to possibly help someone else. Nice handgun by the way! I will one day get the chance to kill an animal at more than 612 yards even if I have to take a trip out west to do it and barnes may not be my choice when I do it It may be a scirrocco. I dont use X bullets like some kind of magic potion for everything I have only had good experiences with them when I do use them! A person can not go his entire life listening to what someone else tells them and never try things on their own or they would not be their own person they would only be a shadow of somone else.

 

[goodgrouper]

Brass Bender,

I hate these hornet nest topics, but I feel you have stepped over the bounds of communication into the realm of slandering so I must defend myself and my experiences lest I be called spineless. So here it goes:

1. Connie Brooks does bring me (my place of employment) bullets every year of which I will be taking pics of and posting them here for your enjoyment. I "ridicule" her tests because water is not a very good testing media if you are trying to show what a bullets performance is on a solid. Water is not solid. However, my 8 dry phonebooks taped together is VERY hard on a bullet (maybe more so than actual bone) and if a bullet is going to expand, it should do it in the phonebooks. Therefore, my tests show different results than hers. That is all I was stating.

2. I defend my shot placement for long range shooting, and if you don't believe it works as good or better than a head shot, just get off your mission and watch "BEYOND BELIEF" produced by John Burns. Every shot on the video is a high shoulder shot, and they flat out work every time. That has also been my experience.

3. I was being logical. I am like Spock with logic. I state my experiences with as much logic (proof) as I can muster.


4.No I am not contending that Barnes lose their petals at long range. In fact, I have seen the exact opposite! They don't lose their petals at long range because they don't open up enough (in my experience) to start to even shear the petals. If you remember from my first post on this subject (if you read it) I said that if one is going to shoot Barnes, he should fire the fastest gun he can shoulder, and shoot closer ranges with them at the heart/lung area which explains why your 230 grain .338's mushroomed well at 30 feet! So, our experiences were not that far off in that regard.

5. If you have had penned up anger towards me for awhile because of my earlier post on LRB bullets, than I can see why you are attacking my opinions and experiences now, but that does not make up for it. If you need to vent, fine, but that is your problem, not mine. I am calm, cool and collected, and realize that these are just words on a computer screen.
And by the way, I have shot Lost River Bullets in 2 different weights, and could not get them to shoot very well at all, so I actually did some homework on them! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I was told that the reason they don't shoot well in most guns is because of the special groove angle needed to smooth the bullets path down the barrel as they have a huge Zinc content. I DID NOT MAKE THAT UP!!!
If you need references to talk to about it, call Bill Shehane at D & B supply (www.scopeusout.com) or Brad Stair at Performance Guns (801-731-8152) or call LRB themselves. They will tell you that a special angle will help. Have you ever been to a 1k yard match? There is not one guy that I know of that shoots LRB bullets, and there IS a reason. I would hate to have a special throat and groove angle made for one bullet because, if that bullet doesn't shoot good (ie your gun doesn't like it) than you might be in trouble!
Big gamble.


6. Your experiences with Barnes are different than mine. That does not mean your experiences are invalid or that you are stupid in my book, so why am I an idiot in your book for the same reasons?? Do I not have a right to explain myself and my choices same as you?? Am I so wrong for showing and expaining it as best as I can? Does this mean that all my long range kills (I have shot 6 big game animals over 700 yards) were just luck? Does it mean that my pic of the bullet in my hand on "820 yard cow elk pics" on this forum was just an elaborate hoax and my choice of bullet (Accubond) was bad? I think not.


7. My experiences and knowledge are not antidotal evidences paraded around as fact. They are my opinions, mixed with documented facts, and are not intended to determine what products you are to use. Only YOU can determine what you are going to buy. It doen't mean belly-button lint to me what you use as long as it makes you happy and keeps you off my back!


8. My friends that work at Barnes do not go out and disparage Barnes at all. That was me who talked about them in a pessimistic view, NOT THEM. I just stated that they don't buy Barnes bullets for their own personal use. They don't deserve to be fired, after all, they are just machinists, not company salesmen. They just tell me the facts from work when I ask them about stuff, and they keep it pretty quiet to everyone else.
Randy and Conni are often gone on Safari anyways, and they do their own marketing there. The recovered bullets that grace the photo albums are often of big bore magnums shot at very close range on critters the size of buses. This can be misleading for the beginner reloader who is hunting white tails at 600 yards. VERY different demands are put on that bullet under the two different scenarios.

Ok, that about wraps it up for now. I respect you very much Brass Bender, and have always thought of you as a very knowledgeable person. In fact, I was shocked that you would jump me the way you did as I thought we were friends and had similiar views. I did not mean to stir a hornets nest or tick you off. I have really enjoyed helping your wonderful son-in-law with his long range shooting, and I hope you won't turn him against me (the flaming moron) because of my apparent inadequacies. I also look forward to shooting with you after your mission if you still want to be seen shooting with an imbacel like me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[goodgrouper]

LWolken,
I agree, and thanks for your views. I was starting to feel pretty lonely and against the whole world!

 

[dakor]

GoodGrouper I am not going to say that a Barnes X is the best bullet for long range because I believe there are better ones. But I am going to correct you on something that I think you are missing the point on. If a X bullet does hit a animal and lose's its petals you now have a shank and 4 petals moving through a animals vitals each creating a wound channel. So it is not like a FMJ like you say. A bullet that comes apart inside a animal does more damage then one the stays together. Now I don't know how you are losing Petals on a Barnes bullet at long range with a little 300 Win Mag /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif because I have one and I have shot the 200 grain TSX into my 1 inch steel gong at 100 yards and the bullet just turns inside out. I have made that bullet lose the petals before but that was in a test I did at 15 yards and the same test at 60 yards the bullet held up just fine. Muzzle velocity out of my 300 Win Mag with the 200 TSX is 2995 FPS. My friend has a 300 Ultra that shoots the Barnes TSX at 3150 FPS. He shot a Whitetail this year at 35 yards. The bullet opened up on contact held together and went out the other side. When we took the hide off you could see the four marks on the enterance hole and the exit hole so the petals stayed intact. Now as to some of the shooters who are wondering about using the barnes bullet for long shots I will tell you what I found out. I called Barnes and talked to their bullet Tech. I asked him if they thought their TSX would be good for shots over 500 yards. The guy did not recommend it. I also asked what impact velocity do they need to open reliably he said that they have tested them down to 1800 FPS but he said that he would not go lower then a impact velocity of 2000 FPS. Barnes bullets are made for close shots not taking out Deer at 800 yards. If its a Long Range shot find a different bullet. If you don't believe me call Barnes yourself.

 

[goodgrouper]

Dakor,
I believe you. That is what I have been saying all along, Barnes are not the best long range bullet.

One thing I would like to mention also is that Barnes bullets are made from copper wire that is brought in from a copper wire producer out of house. It is very common over there in American fork, Utah that some of the lots of copper don't react or swage like others. Barnes takes a bullet off the producion line at random, and tests it for all kinds of different things. If they get a lot of copper that doesn't perform up to specs, they "in theory" go back and scrap all that copper, and send it back to their copper supplier. Then they start over with a different lot. I say this is "in theory" because I have a friend who did his MBA thesis study on Barnes production management about 12 months ago, and he was in house for 5 weeks, and never saw them scrap any bullets and send them back to be melted down. Very interesting isn't it?
I bring this up because it is entirely possible that the Barnes bullets I bought were from the lot that was "supposed" to be scrapped, and the ones you fellas bought were the good ones! It is possible is it not??

Oh, and by the way, you did not have to teach me about shrapnell inside animals causing damage. I have been shooting Ballistic tips for years on elk and deer just for that very idea. Massive damage internally is very effective, and Ballistic tips do way more damage internally then Barnes in my experience.

Also, if you caught the implied meaning of my lot to lot theory of inconsistent copper, than you would have to agree that a bullet that is not consistant from lot to lot can't be good for long range as consistency is the key to accuracy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[7Rumloader]

I agree with you on consistency issues goodgrouper. Also I was not saying they were the best long range bullet only they worked for me so far. These topics do become very sticky way too quick at times dont they! I think that there are better bullets for long ranges such as the scirrocco you mentioned and I was just voicing my opinion on the X bullet since thats all j. jones asked about. Oh I finally got around to looking at those pics of your cow elk and it looks like the accubond worked great. I have shot them in load development but not on game yet have all your experiences with them been that good?

 

[wapiti13]

I may have made a statement that was not entirely correct. Barnes X bullets are more likely to ashed their petals at initial impact at too high a velocity. The high velocity doesn't allow the petals to form a mushroom. Once expansion takes the four petal mushroom shape, then I believe from talking to Barnes that the petals are very stable. Like Brass Bender, you rarely retrieve a Barnes X to examine. The wound challels are impressive and expansion is evident. I think that from tests, the Barnes X expands better than Failsafes. Luckily, most folks don't shoot at 1,000+ yds. The majority of hunters,including ones on this site, would have a large potential of wounding at that range on big game.

 

[Guest]

Well , after shooting 7 dogs and 3 pigs last night with the Triple shocks loades to max velocity out of a 30-06 wich was right under 3500fps with the 130gr bullet molyed , I can atest that the rest of these bullets will be used for shooting only large pigs at close range and I do not feel that the offered enough energy dump on the target at ranges of less than 200yds to be a good effecient killing bullet.

All dogs shot with these bullet were shot directly behind the front shoulder hiutting the heard and lung area all dogs ran at least 75yds and several more than 100 never to be found. the dogs were examinded and found that their was some decient expansion and very good penitration but the bullet just diden't deposit enough energy to offer a quick kill instead having the animals bleed out to die which shows poor bullet performance.
The pigs that were shot acted a little differantly but still went farther than if shot with a Partition. one weighing in the 120lb class was shot in the chest just left of center and the bullet exited breaking the opposite rear leg the range was about 75yds and the animal traveled about 50yds before stopping and lived almost 30 seconds after stopping , I think that if the pig had not had a broken rear leg it would have gone a long way before dieing.

NOW if these animals were shot at such close ranges the impact velocity was surely well above 3000fps and the bullet diden't expand enough to dump alot of energy then I seriously doubt that they will work any better at long range where the lower velocity will slow expansion.

The SST interbonds worked well all bullets exited and all animals diden't travel over 75yds the bullets that hit pigs did seem to break up a bit but still exited unlike a Ballistic tip would.
I think that these bullets are gonna make a good load for what I want.

 

[7Rumloader]

Good job! You formed your opinion of them and they didn't work for you. Have you tried the scirrocco yet? They work very well at all ranges I have tried them at. Everyone can not have the same experience with a bullet or there wouldn't be as many manufacturers as there is. Maybe goodgrouper is right and all us guys that like the X bullet got a better lot than than the guys who dont like them. Stranger things have happened. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Good shooting and hope you find a good knock em dead load for the old /06. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[rost495]

J Jones

The X bullet is not designed and never was to impart the maximum shock to take an animal down instantly. It was designed to be able to penetrate and hold together. If you wanted an instant death on something so small like dogs or smaller pigs, then by all means go to a ballistic tip type of bullet.

Now take a 300 pound or larger boar and shoot him end to end either at 50 yards or 500, the bullet will expand, and will most likely penetrate the whole length and exit.

It is a specialty use bullet. I use them for a lot of hunting. I don't expect them to flop at the shot though they often do. But when Muy Grande walks out at 300 yards walking away from me trailing a doe, I can in 100% confidence shoot him in the butt and it'll give him a dust cloud in front of him as the bullet exits and hits the dirt. I can expect that in almost any animal up to Elk size also.

The end result of this constant conversation is that different folks prefer different performance.

As to X bullets not working, as much respect as I have for the posters on this board, I have to say I'm still waiting to see it happen. And I don't expect I'll see much variance. Not any more than I've seen with all the other bullets anyway. With much more chance of deep penetration.

As to LRB bullets, wow!! I've just not ever been able to shoot them worth a flip. And at a buck or more a piece. Oh well.

Jeff

 

[Guest]

Yea , I guess that the old saying goes oppinions are like A$$e$ , everbody has one and they all stink.

Anyhow , I tried the Swift Scirocco's when they first came out and I coulden't get them to group well so I just went on useing the old reliable Partition but now I'm seriously looking at the new interbonds and accubonds.
Who knows , maybe I'll do a little tinkering with the Barnes and try making the hollow point a little deeper or something
I did however order a box of the 53 gr TSB for a 22-250 Ackley that I use a bit , maybe they'll work better for me when launched up close to 4k.
But everbody is intiteled tho his or her oppinion and somethings work alot better for some folks than others , I respect everbodys opponion and apperciate all the feed back that everbody offered.