joe0121
Well-Known Member
The point is, it doesnt take expensive equipment to make quality ammo.
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Which press?
- Thread starter Coues Sniper
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Broz
Well-Known Member
The point is, it doesnt take expensive equipment to make quality ammo.
I have reloaded for over 30 years now. I have always felt at the time I was making "quality ammo". But over the years and as I got better equipment and started shooting past 500 yards, then 1000 and now a mile I come to realize how poor my ammo was when I first started loading. Even though on an old RCBS press it was sufficient for the 200~300 yard shots at that time, it would fall very short in my rifles and standards I have today. Reloading equipment is not different than anything else, as you get what you pay for. Although, you may have to use some better equipment to realize the short comings of the bargin priced equipment. I helped a friend a while back with a new Hornaday lock n load consentricity guage he purchased. It had more slop in it than his ammo did runout >.003' ~ .004". But he will be happy until he uses something better I guess. I would send it back or use it for a paper weight. One can takea nut off with an all 16th's Cresent wrench, but a set of Snap-On sockets might be more desirable. In the end I guess the nut is off either way. But one nut might have rounded corners and your knuckles might be sore.
Just my thoughts, your milage may vary.
Jeff
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Well, it's true that it doesn't take expensive equipment to make good quality ammo, but it does take quality equipment, as Jeff pointed out.
Unfortunately, "quality" and "expensive" are two items that are often found in close proximity to one another.
Unfortunately, "quality" and "expensive" are two items that are often found in close proximity to one another.
joe0121
Well-Known Member
I have reloaded for over 30 years now. I have always felt at the time I was making "quality ammo". But over the years and as I got better equipment and started shooting past 500 yards, then 1000 and now a mile I come to realize how poor my ammo was when I first started loading. Even though on an old RCBS press it was sufficient for the 200~300 yard shots at that time, it would fall very short in my rifles and standards I have today. Reloading equipment is not different than anything else, as you get what you pay for. Although, you may have to use some better equipment to realize the short comings of the bargin priced equipment. I helped a friend a while back with a new Hornaday lock n load consentricity guage he purchased. It had more slop in it than his ammo did runout >.003' ~ .004". But he will be happy until he uses something better I guess. I would send it back or use it for a paper weight. One can takea nut off with an all 16th's Cresent wrench, but a set of Snap-On sockets might be more desirable. In the end I guess the nut is off either way. But one nut might have rounded corners and your knuckles might be sore.
Just my thoughts, your milage may vary.
Jeff
I think you guy are confusing quality with bench rest precision. I am all about the buy the best tool you can afford way of thinking. I Own an Nightforce NSX, it is the best scope I can afford. If money was no object It would be a US Optics or Schmidt and Bender. That doesn't mean I have a "bad" scope.Well, it's true that it doesn't take expensive equipment to make good quality ammo, but it does take quality equipment, as Jeff pointed out.
Unfortunately, "quality" and "expensive" are two items that are often found in close proximity to one another.
I think starting with a budget would have been more helpful. For some a CoAx 2 would be the best choice for a single stage for others who cant afford 400+ bucks the Ruckshucker or Hornady start looking real nice.
Really hand loaded ammo done with attention to detail even on "poor quality" equipment will likely exceed factory ammo.
This is long range hunting forum so it is a safe bet that someone asking about a press is interested in very accurate ammo. I'm not saying that you can get similar results with cheaper stuff, I'm just saying you can get acceptable results till you budget allow for something better. It will also give you plenty of time to increase your skills.
When I used to drag race youd see guys in 100K+ cars who couldn't get out of the 16's because they didnt have the skill necessary to get the most out of their equipment.
Edit: Also as I am finding out it takes A LOT of equipment. Especially when you start talking about changing seating depth and measuring run out. All this stuff really adds up in a hurry as far as cost goes.
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Actually, I've seen some superb ammunition handloaded on Lee tools, especially their old benchrest model. If memory serves, those sold for around $50 at the time. Considerably more than the $15 or so that their standard reloading kits sold for, but a far cry from the $85 or so that a RockChucker went for.
As for factory ammo, I've seen some that didn't set the bar too high. Others, you'll have a hard time matching even with the best handloading set-ups. Never meant to imply that you have to spend big bucks to get quality equipment, but on average, that's the way it works out.
I'll agree (wholeheartedly) that simply buying the best equipment won't automatically guarantee any degree of success. That's more up to the end user than the equipment. I just returned from a Silhouette match in LA, and that's a good example. You can spend thousands on a top-notch rifle, out the best scope in the world on top, and it still comes down to how well you can shoot. Can't buy success in that game, but it does come a bit easier when you have confidence in your equipment.
I for one would LOVE to have the money I've spent at Sinclair's alone back in one lump sum. It'd go a long way to reversing the damage that Obama's done to my 401K!
As for factory ammo, I've seen some that didn't set the bar too high. Others, you'll have a hard time matching even with the best handloading set-ups. Never meant to imply that you have to spend big bucks to get quality equipment, but on average, that's the way it works out.
I'll agree (wholeheartedly) that simply buying the best equipment won't automatically guarantee any degree of success. That's more up to the end user than the equipment. I just returned from a Silhouette match in LA, and that's a good example. You can spend thousands on a top-notch rifle, out the best scope in the world on top, and it still comes down to how well you can shoot. Can't buy success in that game, but it does come a bit easier when you have confidence in your equipment.
I for one would LOVE to have the money I've spent at Sinclair's alone back in one lump sum. It'd go a long way to reversing the damage that Obama's done to my 401K!
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Another point is this. the law of diminishing returns applies to firearms and reloading.
Is the CoAx capable of creating ammo 4 times as accurate as a ruckshucker? No. Is the US Optics sn3 2-3 times as good as the nightforce NSX, no. one is certainly better than the other but as "quality" goes up so does price on an order of magnitude.
the point is If you cant afford 1300 for a dillon with all the bells and whistles it doesn't mean you still cant get a quality press. Somewhere i think here is a thread where a guy using a bone stock savage and normal down to earth reloading equipment shot a clover leave at 100 yards in .308 of a bipod.
OK, you spend $130 on an RCBS press. Then lets say you load four or five different round (.223, 22-250, .243, .300Win mag, and 44 mag for your revolvers). That's gonna be another $40. The priming device of the RCBS is known to be not so hot, so you gotta buy something. Not knowing right off hand what an average priming device costs that's fairly good, I'm gonna guess $25 for a Lee Auto Prime (known to be fairly good). But you then need the auto prime case holders, at a similar cost. Guess what? We're talking the same cash! The Co-Ax that isn't so cheap usually runs about $240. Comes with an excellent priming device, and needs zero shell holders. In otherwords your ready to start doing cases as soon as you mount the press.
In otherwords a bargin is not always a bargin!
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I've done that at 300 yards with a Garand; slung up prone. 3 shots; touching about .4 inch center to center.
Stuff happens.
Once in a (great) while.
Big deal.
I took into my personal custody a prestine M1d, and like a fool gave it away! It was a war trophey that had British proof marks on it (making it leagle to bring home). Had the factory flash supressor and factor scope and mount. Was good for about 800 yards! Even the walnut stock was mint condition, without a ding or a nick on it!
gary
I tend to disagree with the oft mentioned "it takes a lot of (expensive) equipment, especially when you (list all those exact things you must have perfect to make the perfect ammo)" Here's why.Also as I am finding out it takes A LOT of equipment. Especially when you start talking about changing seating depth and measuring run out. All this stuff really adds up in a hurry as far as cost goes.
I started reloading .308 Win. in the mid 1960's with a used RCBS Jr. press and a standard RCBS full length sizing die and seater. A National Champion suggested I have the sizing die's neck lapped out to 3 thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck so the expander ball could be removed and would no longer bend the sized case necks out of near perfectly straight. I decapped fired cases with the bullet seating die with the decapping rod in it, then cleaned the cases in a Thumblers Tumbler full of rice before lubing and sizing them.
Since then, I've got 5 other RCBS standard full length sizing dies and lapped out their necks to different diameters in .001" steps between dies for different case neck wall thicknesses and bullet diameters. There's about 2 thousandths spread across their body diameters but that never seemed to matter 'cause there was that much spread across the SAAMI sped'd chamber body diameters. Didn't matter how much clearance there was between sized case body and chamber body; they all centered perfectly up front anyway when fired.
Made a cartridge spinner using two 7-inch pieces of 1/4-20 threaded rod with a plate at the back end, a nylon washer on each rod 1/4th inch in front of the plate, another nylon washer forward of the back positioned to touch the bullet just in front of the case mouth. Nuts locked the washers for spacing; it worked well for 30 caliber magnum cases with more space between the washers. Then put a cheap dial indicator bought at a garage sale for 15 bucks on it with its plunger angled to the bullet opposite where it touched the front washers. Laying a round in this "expensive" tool, pulling it back against the back plate with the dial indicator back 1/10 inch from the tip. Readings were as good as a couple of high priced ones other folks let me borrow.
The bullet seater's stem was a bit too big for the hole in the die, so I wrapped some thin tape around it to make it a snug fit. Didn't seem to help bullet runout as whateve runout there was matched the neck's angle to the case axis. Tried a Wilson chamber type seater and it didn't do any better. Bullet seating depth for rounds to be single loaded was made by seating a bullet in an empty sized case by chambering it, then setting the seater die's stem to touch it then back it off half a turn. Bullets seated for loading from magazines were done so about 1/16ths short of maximum magazine length. Either way produced excellent accuracy that several thousandths changes either way didn't help.
Last time I used that old sloppy press and that die to reload some ammo, I won the Colorado State Long Range Championship with it. A year later, some 20 + left over empty sized WCC60 Western Match cases were stuffed with the same lot of primers, powder and bullets then used to test a new Palma rifle's barrel; put 20 of 'em inside 3.3 inches at 800 yards.
The ram on that old press had gone through more ups and downs than the mattress springs on a famous bed about 69 years ago in Hawaii. And those dies had more properly lubricated, long, hard, round things pushed into and pulled out of them than Mamie Stover did working on that same bed during WWII in Honolulu. That die was cleaned just as often, too.
I replaced that old Jr. press with a Rockchucker as it was easier to use full length sizing belted cases. The Jr. was then used most of the time just to seat bullets or deprime cases. But they both produced equally accurate ammo; the Rockchucker's as tight as a Nun's after much use, the Jr.'s as loose as Mamie's.
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Broz
Well-Known Member
When I used to drag race youd see guys in 100K+ cars who couldn't get out of the 16's because they didnt have the skill necessary to get the most out of their equipment.
I can relate to that. When I use to Drag Race my car was well under 100 K and ran 6.30's and 220+. It was competitive for a door car. So I hear what you are saying but quality equipment sure helps.
Jeff
gcamp54
Well-Known Member
... I cant quite see the birth of bacteria on a table top....
That's a good one.
Gordon
joe0121
Well-Known Member
I didnt realize you could get a CoAx for less than 400 bucks. Website says MSRP of 405 or something like that.OK, you spend $130 on an RCBS press. Then lets say you load four or five different round (.223, 22-250, .243, .300Win mag, and 44 mag for your revolvers). That's gonna be another $40. The priming device of the RCBS is known to be not so hot, so you gotta buy something. Not knowing right off hand what an average priming device costs that's fairly good, I'm gonna guess $25 for a Lee Auto Prime (known to be fairly good). But you then need the auto prime case holders, at a similar cost. Guess what? We're talking the same cash! The Co-Ax that isn't so cheap usually runs about $240. Comes with an excellent priming device, and needs zero shell holders. In otherwords your ready to start doing cases as soon as you mount the press.
In otherwords a bargin is not always a bargin!
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I didnt realize you could get a CoAx for less than 400 bucks. Website says MSRP of 405 or something like that.
either Midsouth or Midway has them for $240 most of the time. There are probably others as well
gary
joe0121
Well-Known Member
I saw that but it doesnt look the same as on the Forster site so I didnt want to risk getting the wrong one. I'm def going to get one next payday though.either Midsouth or Midway has them for $240 most of the time. There are probably others as well
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I saw that but it doesnt look the same as on the Forster site so I didnt want to risk getting the wrong one. I'm def going to get one next payday though.
Forster and Banaza have thru the years made two different presses from time to time
When you order in the press, order in a hand full of the Lyman lock rings for the dies (they are better quality and cheaper!). A good way to set the die lock rings up square is to get you hands on a parallel block (something like a 1"x2"x3" block). Run the die down against it during the stroke of the press, and loosen the lock ring. Then retighten it. I've also done this with a CAD washer that was ground parallel. It dosn't help a bunch, but just a little.
I had one more little experiment to try with the Co-Ax, but have never gotten around to doing it. I was going to shave .020" off the O.D. of the die body to allow it to float even more. Also if you happen to have a welder, you might want to think about building a riser for it. I'm using an 8" riser right now that's canted back about 20 degrees. I've got a strait one just like it, and somewhere I have a 4" and a 6" one. Just seems to bring everything closer to eye level.
gary
