Which press?

[Trickymissfit]

Lots of technical mumbo jumbo but no answers to my questions. But I know some folks like explaining their perfect path to precise precision by endless exactness. I doubt reloading presses need to be made with tolerances to 4 places for three reasons:

I did; you failed to grasp it. I even went so far as to tell you how I squared the whole thing up, and what I found in the process

One is there's enough sideways slop between shell holder and case head that any misalignment up to several thouandths between the ram/shellholder centers to the die centers is a non issue.

the case will always take the path of least resistence till it cannot shift anymore. That's one problem with shell holders. in that they only have so much movement built into them

Second, No case is perfectly centered along its entire axis with the chamber when its fired. The back end's usually pressed against the chamber wall opposite the extractor with a tiny bit of clearance to the chamber wall opposite that contact point. An exception's when the case is banana shaped enough to touch the chamber wall near midpoint between the case extractor groove and shoulder-neck edge; the front end's well centered in the chamber shoulder and the back end's got a tiny bit of clearance all the way around.

If there is any taper in the O.D., it will self align just like a taper pin going into a hole with the same taper

Third, cases don't have to be perfectly straight on an axis between the bullet tip and the center of the case head. All cases are a tiny bit out of round and swell perfectly evenly against the slightly out of round chamber walls long before the bullet's out the muzzle each time they're fired. At peak pressure, the case is always perfectly centered in the chamber but by then the bullet's some distance down the bore.

you just contradicted yourself! But forgetting that when a chamber is offcenter or a case is off center the bullet will deform when entering the rifeling ever so slightly. This cause an error in the C/G, and that in turn causes displacement.

In the microseconds after the primer goes off and gas pressure builds up the case will expand in all directions till there's no more room for it to move. But as you said the bullet is free from the neck and just starting to move. The problem is that the bullet is already on a determined path of travel created by the geometry of the of the case (the body of the case maybe solidly trapped) that is not concentric
gary

 

[Fitch]

I've never seen so much talk over a press in my life! Who cares what press one thinks is better than another. The real question is can you shoot?! You can make the most consistent loads in the world, but if you can't shoot, you have worse issues! Most older folk can't compete with the younger generation due to the fact that you guys shake to much, are out of shape and breathe to hard, and your eyesight is out of wack... So Use your 15 presses and I'll see you at the range!!!

Sniper,

I'm a VET that made it to 69 years old. I hunt ground hogs with sporter rifles, walking all over farms, and take them out @ 300 yards with ammo I reloaded myself. I'm pretty much a PBR hunter for ground hogs, but I've shot two in the last week standing, off hand, at ~80 yards. I missed one at ~350 yards sitting off sticks last week, but the other 14 @ 250 yards and less under field conditions were OSOK.

If you are "really" lucky, take care of yourself, eat right, live a prudent life style (you are dead from the first thing that kills you), you might get this old and be able to do it too. Might.

With regard to ammo quality, any of the name brand cast iron D type presses will produce ammo of equal quality if the operator does his part. If I was to buy a press today, I'd probably buy the Redding Ultra Mag, but truth be told, it probably wouldn't result in smaller group sizes than the Redding Boss I'm using now.

I do all my handgun ammo on a 550B.

Fitch

 

[Bart B]

The reply to my question asking what references are used to check a press for squareness 'cause I didn't grasp it at first was:

I did; you failed to grasp it. I even went so far as to tell you how I squared the whole thing up, and what I found in the process

Sorry I'm not able to grasp it. If it's beneath you to explain it in 10 words or less, so be it.

Anyway, a .308 Win. case and chamber body have about .0125" taper per inch of length. Plugging in this fact with the following:

If there is any taper in the O.D., it will self align just like a taper pin going into a hole with the same taper

....how far will a chambered case head move away from the bolt face before it self aligns by centering in the chamber? The case body's .001" smaller in diameter from pressure ring to shoulder-neck point than the chamber in this area; near typical of a fired case before it's sized.

I find this "taper fit" thing interesting because the most accurate rifles I know of have used full length sized cases whose body is 2 to 4 thousandths smaller than chamber diameters and have 2 to 3 thousandths head clearance when chambered. I'm not referring to the smallest groups they shoot; those are more luck than the sum total off all imperfections that represent what one can count on all the time that's best measured by mean radius of shot holes from group center.

 

[Trickymissfit]

The reply to my question asking what references are used to check a press for squareness 'cause I didn't grasp it at first was:

Sorry I'm not able to grasp it. If it's beneath you to explain it in 10 words or less, so be it.

Anyway, a .308 Win. case and chamber body have about .0125" taper per inch of length. Plugging in this fact with the following:

....how far will a chambered case head move away from the bolt face before it self aligns by centering in the chamber? The case body's .001" smaller in diameter from pressure ring to shoulder-neck point than the chamber in this area; near typical of a fired case before it's sized.

I find this "taper fit" thing interesting because the most accurate rifles I know of have used full length sized cases whose body is 2 to 4 thousandths smaller than chamber diameters and have 2 to 3 thousandths head clearance when chambered. I'm not referring to the smallest groups they shoot; those are more luck than the sum total off all imperfections that represent what one can count on all the time that's best measured by mean radius of shot holes from group center.

your right, I could have worded that a lot better than I did. I think everybody here knows that the body of the case is never going to be a press fit in the chamber. Most dies will size the body smaller by about .003" (more or less). We headspace off the tapered shoulder and bolt face most of the time (some headspace off a belt or a rim I know). But with a radical taper like the shoulder angle it is possible to cock the case in the chamber unless there is minimal clearence between the body and the chamber. In theory the less the better, but we also know that's not gonna work. Lets take my 6/250 improved case (I don't own a .308 anymore) as it comes out sorta like the .308. I full length size my cases for roughly .002"/.0025". Cases are not a snug fit in the chamber, but also don't bounce around. The neck is a no trim, with a little runout as to be expected. Still the TIR is about .002" or less after seating the bullets. When I extract a fired case the case body slips right out of the chamber, but there is little if any movement (shouldn't be much). My thought on the case body shape or taper was really ment to imply that the least about of body taper ; the more accurately it would be centered in the chambered. I do understand that some of us like a very slight crush on the shoulder when closing the bolt (I do), and others here like a thousandth or so clearence.
I hope the second time around makes more sense
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

With reference to different press styles, and how much better one is than another, I ran accross a press yesterday afternoon down at my brothers. It's fairly old (I'd say 25 years). It's a true "O-Frame" design, but is about 80% the size of most of the big heavyduty presses we speak of. The frame is not cast iron, and appears to be a cast steel alloy that's been heat treated. There's not name on it! We clamped it down on a heavy work bench, and gave it a look see. The ram was shot as well as the bore needed to be sleeved. We placed a block of steel between the top of the ram and the female threads for the die, and gave it everything we had. The frame did flex a little, maybe .0015"!! Looks like it was painted either black or a very dark green at one time (not much paint left on it). Think we're gonna rebuild this one, as it maybe a perfect press for neck sizing and seating at his house.
gary

 

[Bart B]

But with a radical taper like the shoulder angle it is possible to cock the case in the chamber unless there is minimal clearence between the body and the chamber.

Surely you know that all rimless bottleneck cases are cockeyed in the chamber a tiny bit; both when loaded and moreso when fired. Don't you remember back in basic training that the back end of the case body is pressed against the chamber wall at one point by some force? The back end is off center by half the difference between chamber and case diameter at its pressure ring. And the case shoulder perfectly centers in the chamber shoulder.

In theory the less (clearance) the better, but we also know that's not gonna work.

Then why do the most accurate rifles I know of shoot best when the case fits the chamber "...like a turd in a punch bowl." That quote's from the man who professionally loaded and tested probably more ammo than all those on this forum combined with some of the most accurate bullets on this planet for over 30 years. Nothing shot as accurate as properly full length sized cases with "lots" of clearance between case and chamber......except at the back end, naturally, as mentioned above. I've tried every fired case sizing tool type and technical process man's invented. Nothing shoots as accurate as full length sized cases done so the right way.

 

[Bart B]

Folks wanting one of the finest reloading presses ever made might consider the old RCBS A4 Big Max. Probably the stiffest one ever made.

[ame=http://cgi.ebay.com/RCBS-Big-Max-A4-Steel-Reloading-Press-/320708555251?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D150615268353%26ps%3D54]RCBS Big Max A4 Steel Reloading Press | eBay[/ame]

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/BigMax_Instructions.pdf

Expensive but powerful, they didn't last long on Fred Huntington's product lline. Best thing about them was they didn't spring much at all. One could use the most viscous sizing lube on the market full length sizing bottleneck cases and case headspace would have less than a 2/1000ths spread. Their Rockchucker did just as well but one needed thinner case lube such as the engine oil treatment STP mixed about 60/40 percent with Hoppe's No. 9 bore cleaner.

 

[RDM416]

I'm going to stay out of the "which press is better" part of the discussion, my only comment there is I really like my Forster CO-AX press and have 2 Rock Chuckers and a Hornady (50 BMG press) set up on my bench. They all do the job.

My comment involves those who have talked about the price of a press. In the grand scheme of LR shooting your press is one of the least expensive pieces of equipment you will buy, so spend the extra $100 or $200 and get the one you want. This day in time you can spend $100 in gas just to drive out to shoot for the weekend so why balk at the price of a good press???

 

[Trickymissfit]

Surely you know that all rimless bottleneck cases are cockeyed in the chamber a tiny bit; both when loaded and moreso when fired. Don't you remember back in basic training that the back end of the case body is pressed against the chamber wall at one point by some force? The back end is off center by half the difference between chamber and case diameter at its pressure ring. And the case shoulder perfectly centers in the chamber shoulder.

you are correct in that it's virtually impossible to perfect align a cartridge in the chamber. I think everybody understands that part, but the least amount of error in chambering a round the better the group. I think that .002" clearence is about the minimum you can achive, and still live with. But just as well centered the body of the case is in the chamber it's just as important the the bullet be aligned with the centerline of the bore.
Never did that in basic training. We concentrated on hitting targets. Also a semi auto chamber works a little differently than a standard bolt action (Springfields were long gone by then, and I know I'm not that old)

Then why do the most accurate rifles I know of shoot best when the case fits the chamber "...like a turd in a punch bowl." That quote's from the man who professionally loaded and tested probably more ammo than all those on this forum combined with some of the most accurate bullets on this planet for over 30 years. Nothing shot as accurate as properly full length sized cases with "lots" of clearance between case and chamber......except at the back end, naturally, as mentioned above. I've tried every fired case sizing tool type and technical process man's invented. Nothing shoots as accurate as full length sized cases done so the right way.

Benchrest shooters I know use dies that were reamed with a chamber reamer they are using. They also shoot very tight fitting cases in the chamber (.002" area). Throats are cut very tight and short (I know of a couple that run about .001" clearence on their necks). I know of no one right off hand that full length sizes after every firing. Most use an arbor press with a custom reamed die set
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

I'm going to stay out of the "which press is better" part of the discussion, my only comment there is I really like my Forster CO-AX press and have 2 Rock Chuckers and a Hornady (50 BMG press) set up on my bench. They all do the job.

My comment involves those who have talked about the price of a press. In the grand scheme of LR shooting your press is one of the least expensive pieces of equipment you will buy, so spend the extra $100 or $200 and get the one you want. This day in time you can spend $100 in gas just to drive out to shoot for the weekend so why balk at the price of a good press???

X2
gary

 

[Bart B]

Benchrest shooters I know use dies that were reamed with a chamber reamer they are using. They also shoot very tight fitting cases in the chamber (.002" area). Throats are cut very tight and short (I know of a couple that run about .001" clearence on their necks). I know of no one right off hand that full length sizes after every firing. Most use an arbor press with a custom reamed die set

I'm not referring to benchrest shooters' tools or chambers. I'm talking about other folks using dies such as Redding or RCBS full length bushing dies and barrels with SAAMI spec'd chambers with .004" to .005" neck clearance. The best of these shoot somewhat better than what benchresters end up winning matches with and once in a while setting a record.

For example, here's a 20-shot group fired at 800 yards with full length sized cases in a SAAMI chamber with bullet runout up to .003". Compare its mean radius (about 1.1" or 2.2" 5-shot group average) to any long range benchrest aggregate of three or four 5- or 10-shot groups:

I've made 15-shot groups with 30 caliber magnums at 1000 yards with a mean radius of about 2.1 inch each. Built on a post-64 Win. 70 action at that. One was with full length sized cases shooting 190-gr. bullets and the other was from new cases neck only sized with virgin brass shooting 200-gr. bullets. Look up the current three 10-shot agg. benchrest record and see how it compares. A 2.1 inch mean radius statistically equates to about a 4.2 inch group average at 1000 yards.

Did you know that Sierra's been QA testing their bullets in rail guns firing bullets from full length sized cases since the 1950's? I doubt anyone gets better accuracy with them than they do. Their best match bullets go into groups measured in the one's; just like benchresters do.

I'm not using the smallest 5-or 10-shot group fired for comparison, but there's some that have been fired from full length sized cases that put the best that benchresters tout as records to shame. Expecially when an old pre-'64 classic Winchester 70 action was used conventionally epoxy bedded in a wood stock.

 

[joe0121]

I have a Redding. One press I cannot recommend is Hornady. They make a decent press, but when the two I had wore out, Hornady wouldn't stand behind them. Buy from someone who thinks enough of their product to offer a lifetime warranty. LEE is okay if you have to pinch pennies, but their warranty isn't anything to be proud of either. When I was looking to replace my last Hornady, the two finalists were Redding & RCBS.

Thats interesting Hornady has been awesome to me even when it was clearly my fault. I got a stuck case and after the case removal tool failed, bent the decaping pin. they sent me a brand new die. They sent me some parts for my powder measure for free as well. The lock and load is a great choice for a beginner. Hornady may not be the best but always seems to be the best for that money. That said i'v saving for a dillon progressive, and co-ax. The hornady will still be in service for load development.

 

[joe0121]

Another point is this. the law of diminishing returns applies to firearms and reloading.

Is the CoAx capable of creating ammo 4 times as accurate as a ruckshucker? No. Is the US Optics sn3 2-3 times as good as the nightforce NSX, no. one is certainly better than the other but as "quality" goes up so does price on an order of magnitude.

the point is If you cant afford 1300 for a dillon with all the bells and whistles it doesn't mean you still cant get a quality press. Somewhere i think here is a thread where a guy using a bone stock savage and normal down to earth reloading equipment shot a clover leave at 100 yards in .308 of a bipod.

 

[Bart B]

Somewhere i think here is a thread where a guy using a bone stock savage and normal down to earth reloading equipment shot a clover leave at 100 yards in .308 of a bipod.

I've done that at 300 yards with a Garand; slung up prone. 3 shots; touching about .4 inch center to center.

Stuff happens.

Once in a (great) while.

Big deal.