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Guys, you are forgetting that Hodgdens sells smokeless powder that would work, they are also manufacturing Pyrodex and 777 because that pressure level is what many existing muzzleloaders were designed for. Safety is it, the industry has to consider that there are some incredibly poorly designed in-lines out there from the past and they cannot take the chance of some guy loading one of those rifles with smokeless. Totally different pressures involved. The muzzleloading industry does not support smokeless, that is a hard fact.
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Hello Ian,
The "muzzleloading industry" supports no standards at all that I can discern, and never has. Just what is the proper "land to land" dimension of a ".50 caliber"? No wonder people are confused: a T7 pellet or Pyrodex pellet is touted as a "50 grain equivalent." Yet, just because a rifle is allowed by the manufacturer to be shot with 150 grains of pellets does not mean it is wise (or allowed) to use 150 grains of loose powder. If the muzzleloading industry has "standards" of any sort, just what are they?
The Hodgdon position is obvious, and understandable-- as the majority of the tonnage of powder sold has long been bp subs, and an even higher percentage of their profits. The virtual monopoly they have in BP subs is not the case in the general smokeless market. They never were a smokeless powder maker until they bought IMR (with Pyrodex money), moreso an importer of Australian surplus military powders, still selling ADI manufactured product as the majority of their line.
The Toby timeline shows that his purported "problem" happened nearly two years ago. He laughed about it. His position on smokeless changed far later, ONLY after Henry Ball (10ML patent holder) and Savage CEO Ron Coburn both fired him, for a lot of unsavory reasons. ONLY after his dismisal did he begin to dismiss the Savage-- NOT when his little unwitnessed event happened.
As for a "pressure level" that muzzleloaders are designed for, in no possible way is it reasonable to compare a cheap, 700kp/cm2 proofed, extruded Spanish barrel to T/C or Knight product. Much less 100% proof-tested Savage 10ML-II 4140C or 416SS barrel. What manufacturer has designed all their guns specifically for Triple 7?
Now in its 6th year of consecutive production, the Savage 10ML series can only be considered old, proven technology. It existed long before the first Triple 7 pellet was sold.
If there were issues, you can believe that there is no way Del Ramsey would pull the trigger on one, Savage CEO Ron Coburn, etc., etc., nor would the very conservative Savage Arms Co. continue to make it. It is as old as shooting a plastic wad out of a shotgun-- smokeless powder, wad / sabot, projectile / projectiles . . . fired by a 209 primer.
Just old news-- take a gun proven to withstand the abuse of 129,000 PSI peak pressures, give it a 300% safety factor, and allow NO loads that breech 40,000 PSI.
That's all the 10ML-II is-- simple, conservative, and safe. I put 4000 rounds though one specific gun, and had it gone over from bow to stern. It still was / is within all new factory specs; the barrel is indistinguishable from a new barrel and resides right here.
Shooting a 10ML-II is safe-- proven again and again by those who shoot out their 1360 grain ramrods year after year. Would you shoot a cleaning rod out of your .30-06 or 20 ga.? Yet, that is the negligence and abuse the 10ML-II sees again and again. WITHOUT PROBLEMS OR INJURIES!
Of course it is the wave of the future-- several bullet makers, powder companies, and sabot manufacturers all see it that way.
Safety is a very good reason to embrace the 10ML-II, not shy away from it. Safety is EXACTLY why Henry and Bill Ball designed it in the beginning.
It is an overbuilt gun from a gun designer who always errs on the side of caution and safety, built by a SAAMI American gunmaker that does the same, with 100% proof-testing that no other frontloader maker bothers to do.
You can't close the bolt if the breechplug is out of battery, much less fire it. In safety-off position, it will not discharge from a 20 ft. drop. Consider reloading 12,000 PSI loads for a paper thin 12 ga. shotgun-- then consider 35,000 PSI handloads in a rifle that can take 129,000 PSI.
You can do no better from the designed-in safety of the Savage 10ML-II.
