Which Muzzleloader is best for the money??

[Jimm]

Bh,

777 pellets one year ago ....... bullets touching at 100, same box this fall ..............bullets touching at 100 yds.

50cal Knight disc stainless . Decided to to check it out for the LR game this fall .
same box ( rapidly being depleted ) of 777 pellets produced 2.5 to 3" groups at 300 with a very consistent 2066 avg velo. I must admit that 150 grs ( 3 pells ) kicks the ever loving snot out of you but hey ! it's for hunting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I realize that this may not be and probably isn't common exp with a off the shelf ml but I am glad to have a gotten a " Shooter ' opposed to a " lemon ' fo once /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just my exp , jim

 

[MarkA]

[ QUOTE ]
Mark; That Savage does look hard to beat for accuracy. That group is better than a lot of the locals can do with their HI-Power centerfire rifles.
Ian M; I wonder if this Savage was by chance 1 of the 38 you tested?? Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This Savage ML was the test gun that Cecil Epps of Precision Rifle Bullet (prbullet.com) first tested with his bullets.
Had about 250 rounds thru when I bought from him. He had bedded it and adjusted the accutrigger, other than that it is stock. Has about 3000 rounds (hot rounds) thru it now.

PS it never shot the Precision Bullets as well as the Hornady 250 gr SST shot in the group posted.

 

[Ian M]

fourinone,
Did the book before the Savage came on the scene. I believe that the current Savage in-lines are pretty good rifles, much better than the initial design. Savage is right in there with T/C and Green Mtn for making accurate barrels. I shot a guys brand new Encore a while back at one hundred yards 3 pellets did a group that went inside 0.5". Might have been a total fluke but did it that day in front of a few witnesses. Have been on lots of T/C factory hunts were the rifles we shot went inside one inch right out of the box, same for the old Knights with Tony.

 

[Guest]

DistantFoe, I went with a company called SMI. www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com is the website.

They build smokeless ML on the New England Firearms actions. I bought a used Pardner Shotgun for $85 to send them. They will put a 28" douglas barrel on for $319 plus $60 for a choate stock and $8 for a piece to fix the cocking hammer so you can cock it with a scope on.

They have been selling them since 1984. Long before Savage.
There a few other companies as well; New Ultra Light Arms (NULA), SwingLock, and BadBull. I heard bad reviews about the BadBulls, plus they are $3000 each. The Nula is supposed to be amazing I believe it has a Mcmillian Stock and you can get a Timney or Jewell Trigger. They are around $1100. I haven't heard anything about swinglock.

What I liked about the SMI is that you can shoot rifle bullets and it will cost me less than a savage.

If your going to shoot an inline it makes no sense to not go smokeless. It's legal in most states and you can shoot triple 7 or the other crap if it not legal. My Knight shoots pyrodex the best and it is the worst stuff to deal with so I'm going smokeless.

Remember, its still a muzzleloader and your not going to get 1/4" groups. If you can get less than an inch your doing great.

 

[fourinone]

Thanks Ian M and thanks again to the rest of you who have added to this topic. You men are even more help than I would have ever guessed on this topic. Many Thanks!!

 

[edge]

IMO, the Savage is a great rifle. The SMI conversions get great reviews too.

Go Smokeless, you can always shoot the dirty stuff if you want to. You can't do the reverse with a non-smokeless ML!

Smokeless can also be much cheaper to shoot since you are using real powder and Hodgdon can't corner the market.

You can tailer your load to almost any velocity and recoil that you can bear. If you want to plink with a cheap 250 XTP at 2,000 fps or shoot an Elk with a 300 grain Barnes bullet at 2500 fps these are available from the Savage.

If you have questions there is a very friendly group of Savage addicts at :

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

edge.

 

[Ian M]

Guys,
Smokeless has not gone over the way that some companies hoped, therefore Knight, T/C, Traditions and CVA are not rushing smokeless rifles to the market. Believe me, they all looked at it and decided against it for safety reasons, and so far the market is just not demanding it. Will it stay, probably but not likely to increase much or it would have shown signs of doing so by now. Might be wrong.

As I see it smokeless is for guys who do not want to be bothered with extensive cleaning and the rust concerns of the past (recent smokeless substitutes have significantly reduced these concerns) and guys who are looking to push the envelope. I shoot with factory guys who are interested in pushing our confident shooting distances but we are staying with Pyrodex and 777. Have 300 yards accuracy fairly good, now to move to 350. Do we need it? About the same challenge as shooting out at 550 -600 yards with a good .308 rifle or longer with a magnum.

Please don't forget where muzzleloading came from - 300 yards is a good challenge but so is getting in to 15 yards with a flinter. My heart beats way faster when I am in close, one blink can blow it. Sometimes it is good to take a step backwards instead of foreward.

 

[edge]

I have a completely different view.

Please don't be offended, but this IS LONGrangehunting.com! I don't begrudge a flinter or bowhunter for their choice of weapon, and they should not do the same should someone choose a 300WSM. That would be like saying that all rifles should be limited to 28,000psi since the 50-140 is!

Onto why other major manufacturers are not making smokeless muzzleloaders.
IMO, there is only one reason, and safety is NOT it!
Every year Knight and the others come out with new hyped advertisements for their new super BP rifles. IMO, people keep trying to reach long distance with ML rifles and they are being spoon fed a few yards at a time to sell more rifles.

IMO, Properly made Smokeless rifles shooting sabotted bullets are MUCH safer than BP!

IMO, Knight and the others have smokeless rifles ready for production and once another major manufacturer comes out with one the entire industry will change overnight.

In the Savage ML community there is considerable experimentation along the lines taken on this board all of the time. Perhaps distances are not as great, but the challenge is the same. I personally have replaced my Savage barrel with a Krieger 505 Gibbs 1:20 twist barrel and shoot a 150 grain 8mm Sierra bullet. Many others have added Pac-Nor barrels of varying bores and twists to improve their performance.

Smokeless may be in its infancy, but it will be the future of long range muzzleloading.

IMO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

edge.

PS Pyrodex was invented in the 1970s and smokeless in the 1880s. Duplex loads involving smokeless have been around in ML's for a hundred years, so I don't think that the idea is really new!


[ QUOTE ]
Guys,
Smokeless has not gone over the way that some companies hoped, therefore Knight, T/C, Traditions and CVA are not rushing smokeless rifles to the market. Believe me, they all looked at it and decided against it for safety reasons,
SNIP

Please don't forget where muzzleloading came from - 300 yards is a good challenge but so is getting in to 15 yards with a flinter. My heart beats way faster when I am in close, one blink can blow it. Sometimes it is good to take a step backwards instead of foreward.

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Guest]

I have to agree with EDGE, smokeless is the way of the future. Knight and T/C are both in bed with Hodgkins and that is why you wont see them making smokeless poles.

Plus, is they start going smokeless, they will be following Savage instead of being leaders.

I personally think Savage in an inferior product and that is a big factor in smokeless not catching on.

BadBull, NULA and others are real expensive and most people get into muzzleloading only to extend time in the woods.

SMI will cost a little less than the savage for a better product that is why I went with them. I also like the break open action instead of the Bolt.

Smokeless WILL be the future!

 

[Ian M]

Guys, you are forgetting that Hodgdens sells smokeless powder that would work, they are also manufacturing Pyrodex and 777 because that pressure level is what many existing muzzleloaders were designed for. Safety is it, the industry has to consider that there are some incredibly poorly designed in-lines out there from the past and they cannot take the chance of some guy loading one of those rifles with smokeless. Totally different pressures involved. The muzzleloading industry does not support smokeless, that is a hard fact. The major companies in the industry were unanimous in a letter expressing that fact a few years back.
I liken smokeless to souping-up cars to go very fast, yet our speed limits are set and they are not going to change.
Might be wrong, the industry might do a flip-flop but I would not hold my breath. There is some new stuff coming, I will be shooting some of it shortly at a factory but - it ain't smokeless.
You are correct, this is long range hunting and we can enjoy the challenge of long range hunting with muzzleloaders using any propellant. Bottom line is we only get one shot at a time. If the industry lets velocities and performance get too close to centerfire then I believe the game agencies will react and shut down nitro-cel based propellants. Question will be "Why not hunt with a Ruger #1 if you want to shoot a single shot?" and there is no good answer. I would enjoy the smokeless performance but keep it low-key so stupid rumors do not get rolling. Remember what happened in Colorado several years ago - still not fixed.

 

[edge]

Only 2 points:

1) Hodgdon T7 loose powder in a magnum loading costs 2 to 3 times as much as a magnum loading of smokeless = +++ $$$
Chris Hodgdon is ROTFL His AO when you buy pellets cuz the cost per shot goes through the roof!

2) Safety is dependant on the shooter. Shoot what YOUR rifle says to shoot and you will be safe. We don't outlaw 20 gauge shotshells because they could lodge inside of a 12 Gauge shotgunby accident. If someone decides to shoot a wrong cartridge in their firearm it is not the Mfg's fault, it is the responsibility of the shooter to know what he is doing.
I suppose that if you gave the Ammunition companies the option they would outlaw RELOADING by saying that it is dangerous, but it would really be for their bottom line! IMO.

edge.

 

[Guest]

Ian, there are several other facts to consider:

I'm not a fan of smokeless because of long range capabilites. I really do not think that it extends effective range all that much. I a fan because it adds consistency due to it cleaner burning capabilites. You can clean it like a Centerfire.

Game agencies will not stop smokeless. The idea is to lessen the deer population. If states tried to make it tougher the insurance companies would go beserk. The power of the NRA is nothing compared to the power of Insurance companies. They want guns and hunting more than most because of animal/car damage.

Safety? Shooting pyrodex is a safety hazard in itself. Many new ML hunters do not clean these highly corrosive powders then fire the gun a few months later with 3 50 grain pellets. Its riduclous to say that shooting a properly built smokeless is more dangerous.

If you are a ML shooter than you are a re-loader. Reloading of any kind can also cause accidents if too much powder is used. How many post have been on this board where a guy says that there bolt was stuck because of a hot load?

Another fact that cannot be ignored is that Hodgkins says "never use more that 100 grains" of Pyrodex or T7, but knight and T/C say to use 150???

Inline ML's have really taken off, and if we follow the trend then smokeless is inevitable. When someone with a "Mathews" marketing blitz starts selling smokeless Knight is in trouble.
(Mathews Bows market there product like there is no tomorrow)

The hunting mags and shows are not about to promote smokeless because Knight and T/C are major sponsers. Gun shops are in the same boat because they make a lot of money selling T/C and Knight.

Bottom line is that claiming smokeless muzzleloading is bad because people load improperly and hurt themselves, then the same holds true for pyrodex, T7, real Black Powder, or any other smoking propellent AND ammo reloaders. They are ALL capable of overloading.

Lastly, the DOT and BATF both consider Pyrodex "Smokeless Powder"

 

[distantfoe]

Birdman - I seriously considered going with a SMI barrel for my encore but was having some issues with the hinge pin tolerences. At any rate, I went with the swinglock. I've been completely satisfied with it so far as it will shoot the 250gr sst at over 2800fps with what looks to be a mild load, manual has a upper end load at over 3100fps. The 2800fps load will consistently group at 2" at 300 yards.

These smokeless guns are awesome for the simple fact that since one should foul their gun before hunting, just like practicing/sighting-in, you won't have a rust bucket in a day or two. I haven't had much luck hitting anything with a rusted barrel, well much past 100 yards.

 

[edge]

distantfoe,

Mind sharing your load for the swinglock? 4300 Ft/lbs "mild" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Do you use a sabot or do you use a sized bullet?

Thank,

edge.