Which long range target rifle to buy

[catorres1]

Yeah, overthinking is my specialty. I usually go through a process of driving myself to distraction, then putting it down for a few weeks while all the data clears, then finally making a decision. I think right now, I am in the driving myself crazy stage.

But what do I want to do with it? Ultimately, shoot steel and targets at 500 to 1200 yard ranges. Use it for training classes to do this. So to improve my skills to transfer over to my hunting weight rifle, and be comfortable shooting game out to 500 or so from field positions.

Reality is, shooting at a 1k range is easily available. But hunting opportunities? They are few and far between, and I have two young sons in line in front of me, so it's range time only for daddy for the next decade or so

But that's why I want a 260, great light recoil round that is good out to the long ranges I am looking to shoot, and it closely matches the wind drift on the 300 win mag I plan to buy to pair with it, hence my trying to find the right and also matching stock and trigger.

Weatherby's fit me better than most anything else I have tried. An accurate remington in a weatherby style stock works for me, I'll just need two of them...but only the range gun right now.

I know a 308 can do 1k, but I also know a 260 will do it better and more closely mimic the drift with a 300 (or 7 mag, which I also am considering at times).

BTW, I do handload...here is a question to pose....what about the idea of a 300 or 7mag for the range gun...but I could just load them down significantly for practice. My only concern with this idea is that with minimum loads, the load density in the case might not give very good accuracy. But if it would work, it would simplify my loading bench somewhat.

Still, I have to admit, looking at the 260 numbers, it is the best solution, it appears, for what I want.

 

[HARPERC]

1) Been there.
2) I've got a heavy (14 lb) .300 Winchester, with a break it's not a bad bench gun. I'm not fond of reduced loads.
3) Nothing wrong with a .308, but I went .260 as well. Although, some nice .308's got away. I overthink at times also, a good .308 would serve your needs very well.

 

[FEENIX]

Yeah, overthinking is my specialty. I usually go through a process of driving myself to distraction, then putting it down for a few weeks while all the data clears, then finally making a decision. I think right now, I am in the driving myself crazy stage.

But what do I want to do with it? Ultimately, shoot steel and targets at 500 to 1200 yard ranges. Use it for training classes to do this. So to improve my skills to transfer over to my hunting weight rifle, and be comfortable shooting game out to 500 or so from field positions.

Reality is, shooting at a 1k range is easily available. But hunting opportunities? They are few and far between, and I have two young sons in line in front of me, so it's range time only for daddy for the next decade or so

But that's why I want a 260, great light recoil round that is good out to the long ranges I am looking to shoot, and it closely matches the wind drift on the 300 win mag I plan to buy to pair with it, hence my trying to find the right and also matching stock and trigger.

Weatherby's fit me better than most anything else I have tried. An accurate remington in a weatherby style stock works for me, I'll just need two of them...but only the range gun right now.

I know a 308 can do 1k, but I also know a 260 will do it better and more closely mimic the drift with a 300 (or 7 mag, which I also am considering at times).

BTW, I do handload...here is a question to pose....what about the idea of a 300 or 7mag for the range gun...but I could just load them down significantly for practice. My only concern with this idea is that with minimum loads, the load density in the case might not give very good accuracy. But if it would work, it would simplify my loading bench somewhat.

Still, I have to admit, looking at the 260 numbers, it is the best solution, it appears, for what I want.

lightbulbThen do it ... problem solved! lightbulb

You have been provided excellent recommendations but you have the ultimate decision to make and face the consequence(s) associated with the decision.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Yeah, overthinking is my specialty. I usually go through a process of driving myself to distraction, then putting it down for a few weeks while all the data clears, then finally making a decision. I think right now, I am in the driving myself crazy stage.

But what do I want to do with it? Ultimately, shoot steel and targets at 500 to 1200 yard ranges. Use it for training classes to do this. So to improve my skills to transfer over to my hunting weight rifle, and be comfortable shooting game out to 500 or so from field positions.

Reality is, shooting at a 1k range is easily available. But hunting opportunities? They are few and far between, and I have two young sons in line in front of me, so it's range time only for daddy for the next decade or so

But that's why I want a 260, great light recoil round that is good out to the long ranges I am looking to shoot, and it closely matches the wind drift on the 300 win mag I plan to buy to pair with it, hence my trying to find the right and also matching stock and trigger.

Weatherby's fit me better than most anything else I have tried. An accurate remington in a weatherby style stock works for me, I'll just need two of them...but only the range gun right now.

I know a 308 can do 1k, but I also know a 260 will do it better and more closely mimic the drift with a 300 (or 7 mag, which I also am considering at times).

BTW, I do handload...here is a question to pose....what about the idea of a 300 or 7mag for the range gun...but I could just load them down significantly for practice. My only concern with this idea is that with minimum loads, the load density in the case might not give very good accuracy. But if it would work, it would simplify my loading bench somewhat.

Still, I have to admit, looking at the 260 numbers, it is the best solution, it appears, for what I want.

The .260 is an awesome caliber, as I have stated before. But if you plan on doing ALOT of range work and shooting, the .308 Win has a barrel that will last **** near forever. The .260 will be harder on barrels.

Not trying to sway you either way, especially since I think either direction will be the correct one...But just making sure you have included the barrel life factor into your calculations.

 

[catorres1]

The .260 is an awesome caliber, as I have stated before. But if you plan on doing ALOT of range work and shooting, the .308 Win has a barrel that will last **** near forever. The .260 will be harder on barrels.

Not trying to sway you either way, especially since I think either direction will be the correct one...But just making sure you have included the barrel life factor into your calculations.

I had thought about that, but I suspect I won't get what most would consider alot of range time. However, 308 does have some benefits for me in terms of component availability, bullet compatibility with a 300 mag etc. Plus the choice of rifles, etc, are very large!

Where it is not as good for me is it's wind drift characteristics are far from the 300, and it's 1k capabilities, I have been told, are not so great.

So that makes me hold back and try to stick with the 260, but maybe that's not really necessary.

Certainly, finding a 308 to match whatever I decide to buy in terms of a 300 would be a whole lot easier.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I had thought about that, but I suspect I won't get what most would consider alot of range time. However, 308 does have some benefits for me in terms of component availability, bullet compatibility with a 300 mag etc. Plus the choice of rifles, etc, are very large!

Where it is not as good for me is it's wind drift characteristics are far from the 300, and it's 1k capabilities, I have been told, are not so great.

So that makes me hold back and try to stick with the 260, but maybe that's not really necessary.

Certainly, finding a 308 to match whatever I decide to buy in terms of a 300 would be a whole lot easier.

What is your 5mph 90* horizontal wind drift for your .300 WM load at 1000 yards?

My .308 Win with a fairly warm load of Varget (I can go hotter) pushing a Berger 210 VLD is around 41", or 3.9 MOA, or 1.1 Mils.

 

[catorres1]

Using JBM, I get the following for my local conditions (500 feet, often about 85 degrees) 10mph wind:
308
185 Berger Hybrid (.569 BC)
2600 FPS mv
1304 fps v at 1k


At 10 mph 79.1, 5mph, that drift is 39.6

300 win mag with 200 Berger Target Hybrid
2950 fps
At 10 mph, 56.7 , at 5, 28.4

Looking at the 260, assuming 2800 with a 140 target hybrid
It has 62.4 at 10, and 31.2 at 5

 

[Greyfox]

Using JBM, I get the following for my local conditions (500 feet, often about 85 degrees) 10mph wind:
308
185 Berger Hybrid (.569 BC)
2600 FPS mv
1304 fps v at 1k


At 10 mph 79.1, 5mph, that drift is 39.6

300 win mag with 200 Berger Target Hybrid
2950 fps
At 10 mph, 56.7 , at 5, 28.4

Looking at the 260, assuming 2800 with a 140 target hybrid
It has 62.4 at 10, and 31.2 at 5

My 300WM loaded ith 210VLDs at 2950 and my 6.5-284 with 140VLD's with 2970FPS are very close with drop and wind drift to 1000 yards.

 

[catorres1]

Yeah, and that is another thing I like about the 260 when paired with a 7mag or 300 mag. The drifts are fairly close, though not as close as it would be with a 6.5-284. The 308 is significantly different.

But maybe this is not important? I mean, the difficulty is knowing how much wind there is, right? And whether you adjust 60 inches or 80 inches maybe does not matter. I don't know. But I thought maybe it's a good idea to try and get similar drift characteristics.

In addition, with the 260, 1k at supersonic is very easily done. One of the ranges I will be going to trains out to 1200. So it's good in that sense.

Reading up, it sounds like 1k is a lot harder for 308, and 1200 is very hard. I read a German Salazar article where his minimum is mach 1.2, and the 308 mostly did not meet his needs at 1k, certainly not at 1.2k.

Were these things not the case, it would be a lot easier to pick a rifle. It's too bad so few choices are chambered in 260/6.5's. For a heavy barrel, there is basically Savage LRP, Predator hunter and LRH (which I don't know if there are stocks to fit easily as they are bottom bolt release), Tikka CTR and that's it.

For good stock fit...Vanguard Varmint RC first. Rem LR rifle stock is pretty good, not as good but good. And then, any other Rem, I can buy some aftermarket stock...the best being the long actions where I can get the Weatherby style that fits me well.

Course, I guess all of them will take a Manners or McMillan, but that is just too pricey for me. The other option is to drill and install one of those cheek risers, but I really don't want to do that.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Yeah, and that is another thing I like about the 260 when paired with a 7mag or 300 mag. The drifts are fairly close, though not as close as it would be with a 6.5-284. The 308 is significantly different.

But maybe this is not important? I mean, the difficulty is knowing how much wind there is, right? And whether you adjust 60 inches or 80 inches maybe does not matter. I don't know. But I thought maybe it's a good idea to try and get similar drift characteristics.

In addition, with the 260, 1k at supersonic is very easily done. One of the ranges I will be going to trains out to 1200. So it's good in that sense.

Reading up, it sounds like 1k is a lot harder for 308, and 1200 is very hard. I read a German Salazar article where his minimum is mach 1.2, and the 308 mostly did not meet his needs at 1k, certainly not at 1.2k.

Were these things not the case, it would be a lot easier to pick a rifle. It's too bad so few choices are chambered in 260/6.5's. For a heavy barrel, there is basically Savage LRP, Predator hunter and LRH (which I don't know if there are stocks to fit easily as they are bottom bolt release), Tikka CTR and that's it.

For good stock fit...Vanguard Varmint RC first. Rem LR rifle stock is pretty good, not as good but good. And then, any other Rem, I can buy some aftermarket stock...the best being the long actions where I can get the Weatherby style that fits me well.

Course, I guess all of them will take a Manners or McMillan, but that is just too pricey for me. The other option is to drill and install one of those cheek risers, but I really don't want to do that.

You are 100% correct on that. Learning to read the wind, and learning to dial are the 2 main things, caliber is not.

Honestly, a lot of guys will tell you that since a .308 is slower and has more wind drift, it is more difficult to learn to shoot at long distances. Therefore, it will make you a more prolific shot with the faster calibers that have less wind drift. I have heard several BR shooters and old timers say that.

 

[Standbanger]

Pretty good thread !!! Learn a little here and there.

 

[catorres1]

Yep, me too!

Went to another LGS today to see what they had. Turns out they did not have what I was hoping to see (a CTR), but did have a 5R in 300 win mag. They also had the Weatherby Vanguard Varmint RC I am interested in. Still like the Weatherby Varmint BC stock best, but it would need lengthened for me. However, the M40 stock on the 5R, while not as good a fit, was really good.

As an aside, they had a rifle with what i believe was a McMillan with a very high monte carlo. That was pretty sweet from my perspective.

Anyway, what is the thought around the idea of using a 300 or 7 mag for high volume practice....but loading them down to mitigate recoil to make that effective? Am I likely to see poor accuracy from this practice?

If so, I might consider that 5R in 300 win mag. Pity they don't do it in 7mag.

Another idea would be to consider getting a Remington long range and then rebarelling it to whatever I like...it has the same stock as the 5r I just looked at. Could put a Kreiger on it. Problem is, that takes me up to the $1300 range...

Just some thoughts.

 

[catorres1]

Well, see what you think of these numbers. Note: Magnum loads are minimum loads from Nosler's website, or in the case of the 7mag with 162's, Hornady. Nosler just did not have that many 168 loads to choose from. In the case of the Nosler loads, the load was the most accurate tested in that powder, and also the minimum load. Interestingly, many of the minimum loads were actually the most accurate, especially with the 300 magnum. In that case, I used loads for the 190, as they don't make a 185, same with the 308

For the 162's from Hornady, no idea if it was accurate. I know Sierra also offers data on which powder and load was the most accurate, but I don't have Sierra's manual.

Recoil numbers come from Point Blank's calculator, assuming a 10.5lb rig.

308
185gr
2600 fps
14.8 lbs
9.5 fps

7mag
175gr
2690 fps
16.25 lbs
9.9fps

162 gr
2600
15 lbs
9.6 fps

300 mag

185 or 190
2684 fps
20.1 lbs
11.1 fps

My takeaway on this? The 7 mag looks like a winner. A full bore 260 load does better on wind drift by about 6 inches at 1k with a 10mph wind. But it handily beats the 300 and the 308. Less recoil than the 300 with less drift. Only very slightly more than the 308, with way less drift.

The 300 has 33% more recoil than the 308, and about 25-33% more than the 7 mag. That being said, this load has less than 50% of the recoil of what I have been shooting, so there is that.

But still, this downloading looks like it might be a viable option if I find that the rifle and stock I want only come in a magnum caliber. Only thing is....I don't think they do a 7mag in the 5r....

So 5r 308...requires selling the stock it came with and getting another and having it bedded...not too keen on that if I can avoid it

7mag...no 5r available! Could buy the LR rifle in 7 mag and hope it shoots, but basically expect to have to rebarrel....in which case...it's a $1300 rifle. Not so good.

300 mag 5r...good stock, good reputation. Same round I want to hunt with (albiet at full velocity). Downside...25-33% more recoil.

260/6.5....a rebarrel of an RC vanguard Varmint. Likely about 1400ish. Or could do the same to a remington LR...about 1300. Doing it with an SPS is like 1350 or more.

At this point, if they made a 5r 7mag that has the same reputation as I am seeing on the 5r 308's, I'd be mighty tempted.

 

[catorres1]

Noticing that there are no 5R's with the m40 stock for sale on the net. This one had a blued fluted barrel as well. I did not check to see if it was stamped 5r....bet it was not one...maybe it's a long range rifle, but those do not show a fluted barrel....hmmm, my have to return to the shop and see what that was....