What went wrong? Opinions needed.

[Emm 300 RUM]

I too had that problem using the led sled put my bipod on and good rear bag and my 300 rum was singing

 

[Korhil78]

Triad tactical makes a good rear bag. This is what I use:

https://www.triadtactical.com/Red-Tac-Gear-Rear-Bag.html

 

[xsn10s]

Rear bag, a sock filled with beans or rice. In a pinch I've used a rolled up shirt. With shooting sticks I've sat with my Eberlestock backpack between me and the stick to use as a rear bag.

 

[KyCarl]

Could you have just been excited and messed up?
There's a lot of little things that add up.
Length amplifies error.

 

[fitzm2]

I'm fairly new to long range shooting, learning most of what I know from internet research, including this forum. I'll expose myself to criticism in his thread, rightfully so, but I'm good with that if it helps me learn.

I have a Fierce Edge 300 Win Mag with a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18 x 44 shooting Berger 210 VLD target bullets sighted in with a 200 yard zero. I programmed my Leica Geovid HD-B rangefinding binocs using their ballistic calculator with inputs specific to this setup. Using the Geovid's feedback in MOA clicks, which self-adjusts for environmental factors (temp, pressure/elev, angle), I then shot the gun at 50 yard intervals out to 700 yards. It had ½ MOA accuracy out to 400 yards. Beyond that, the bullet dropped more than expected. I then lowered muzzle velocity in the ballistic calculator until the drop charts matched what occurred in the field, to within 1" out to 600 yards – that's all I needed since the scope's elevation turret stops at 53 clicks. I then reprogrammed the Geovid.

Last week, I ranged a bull elk at 413 yards with a headwind of 10 mph. Adjusting for a 4000' elevation difference and environmental conditions, the Geovid correctly called for 5.1 MOA of elevation. The shot missed high, maybe a foot over the back. The bull moved to 450 yards, the Geovid called for 6.2 MOA, but I purposely kept it at 5.1 MOA. Still, the shot missed high – twice. Still at 450 yards, I dialed it down to 4.0 MOA, and the 4th shot hit a few inches below the back and spined him. I shot 4 more times to finish him off, each appearing to hit high as he expired on his own. Nice bull down, but I just sat there in disgust. I've had several kills already at the same distance with a factory gun using simple holdover values.

8 shots, all high, each at a still, broadside, and very accommodating bull. I felt relaxed with steady crosshairs, verbally reminding myself to gently squeeze the trigger. I verified the 200 yard zero immediately before and after the kill - surprise, it's not the gun.

Here's a breakdown of likely factors, and where I need the feedback:

1 – I forgot to adjust parallax. The knob was set to 100 yards. After the sighs, cries, and rolling of eyes – could this cause shots to consistently hit 2 foot high at 400-450 yards?

2 – I shot at the bull prone from a bipod. The gun was sighted in and practiced long range on a bench with a Lead Sled (I've since read "no-nos" about that). During pre-hunt practice, I did verify point-of-impact with a bi-pod, but only a few shots at 100 yards, and from the bench, not prone.

3 – The bullets may have travelled through the tops of thin grass tufts about 30 yards from the muzzle. With the naked eye, it looked like the shots could clear it. But, through the scope, I occasionally noticed the scope slightly blurred at the bottom, likely from the grass bending and straightening in the head wind.

Advice, opinions? Bring it.

Let's see if I can give you some food for thought on these misses. You mentioned that your ballistic compensator adjusted the yardage to 450 yards, but the actual line of sight is probably 500 yds and some change. You mentioned that you had a 1 degree slope and that you were shooting down hill. You also mentioned that there was a 10 mile per hour headwind.
We know that 1 degree is equal to 92 feet at one mile. If your target is somewhere near 500 yds then we know that your target was somewhere around 30 feet below your line of sight. 500 yds/1760 yds=about 1/3. 1/3 of 92 feet = 30 feet. If we were to draw a triangle with the apex being where you were shooting from , you can see quickly that the wind is not a head wind per se...it is acting as an updraft because of the slope of the hill.
We can input a 10 mile an hour wind into our ballistic calculator and for a full value wind our drift factor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 minutes based on your 210 grain bullet. Now in a prone position, shooting down hill, that bullet will be traveling basically in ground affect...which means that the air is denser than you would expect. Now, if we take the bullet and view it as an airplane wing, traveling into a 10 mile an hour wind and that wind is affecting the bullet in a constant lift due to the slope of the land, I suspect that we have just exceeded 4 minutes of angle. 4 minutes of angle at 500 yards, that the bullet is actually traveling, puts the bullet about 20 inches above your point of aim.
From your description of where your bullets were impacting, dose this make sense?

 

[Unoboats]

Thanks. Suggestions on a rear bag? Wondering if there's something of quality that's lightweight and packable.

I use my puffy in its stuff sack or rain jacket in its stuff sack.

 

[TX Badger]

Let's see if I can give you some food for thought on these misses. You mentioned that your ballistic compensator adjusted the yardage to 450 yards, but the actual line of sight is probably 500 yds and some change. You mentioned that you had a 1 degree slope and that you were shooting down hill. You also mentioned that there was a 10 mile per hour headwind.
We know that 1 degree is equal to 92 feet at one mile. If your target is somewhere near 500 yds then we know that your target was somewhere around 30 feet below your line of sight. 500 yds/1760 yds=about 1/3. 1/3 of 92 feet = 30 feet. If we were to draw a triangle with the apex being where you were shooting from , you can see quickly that the wind is not a head wind per se...it is acting as an updraft because of the slope of the hill.
We can input a 10 mile an hour wind into our ballistic calculator and for a full value wind our drift factor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 minutes based on your 210 grain bullet. Now in a prone position, shooting down hill, that bullet will be traveling basically in ground affect...which means that the air is denser than you would expect. Now, if we take the bullet and view it as an airplane wing, traveling into a 10 mile an hour wind and that wind is affecting the bullet in a constant lift due to the slope of the land, I suspect that we have just exceeded 4 minutes of angle. 4 minutes of angle at 500 yards, that the bullet is actually traveling, puts the bullet about 20 inches above your point of aim.
From your description of where your bullets were impacting, dose this make sense?

Would that angle equal a full value wind?

On the earlier question of improper eye alignment. I would need to verify it on the range, but as quick test with my optics I moved from extreme edge to edge of the eye box and believe it would be hard to get that far off at 450. I think you'd lose the sight picture first.

My dad used to have a similar issue in the field with high shots. He eventually figured out that he was breaking form early trying to recover from the recoil and see the deer. (Dropping the stock)
A 300 mag with 210s has significant recoil. Could you have been breaking your position trying to follow these shots too the target?

 

[Jeremyc]

Let's see if I can give you some food for thought on these misses. You mentioned that your ballistic compensator adjusted the yardage to 450 yards, but the actual line of sight is probably 500 yds and some change. You mentioned that you had a 1 degree slope and that you were shooting down hill. You also mentioned that there was a 10 mile per hour headwind.
We know that 1 degree is equal to 92 feet at one mile. If your target is somewhere near 500 yds then we know that your target was somewhere around 30 feet below your line of sight. 500 yds/1760 yds=about 1/3. 1/3 of 92 feet = 30 feet. If we were to draw a triangle with the apex being where you were shooting from , you can see quickly that the wind is not a head wind per se...it is acting as an updraft because of the slope of the hill.
We can input a 10 mile an hour wind into our ballistic calculator and for a full value wind our drift factor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 minutes based on your 210 grain bullet. Now in a prone position, shooting down hill, that bullet will be traveling basically in ground affect...which means that the air is denser than you would expect. Now, if we take the bullet and view it as an airplane wing, traveling into a 10 mile an hour wind and that wind is affecting the bullet in a constant lift due to the slope of the land, I suspect that we have just exceeded 4 minutes of angle. 4 minutes of angle at 500 yards, that the bullet is actually traveling, puts the bullet about 20 inches above your point of aim.
From your description of where your bullets were impacting, dose this make sense?

This is the best explanation that I have heard so far. Also, I am wondering what the area was behind the bull. I thought I read dry lake bed, but am not sure. One thing that I have learned is that shots are not always as high as they appear. In watching thousands of bullets miss targets while ROing PRS style matches, one needs to take into account the foliage around the target. If there is 10" of grass and you see a dust cloud, the bullet impact is actually 10" lower than where the dust cloud appears. Not saying that this is happening in this case, but you did say that there was about 10" of grass where you were shooting, so maybe your shots weren't as high as you thought?

 

[TX Badger]

This is the best explanation that I have heard so far. Also, I am wondering what the area was behind the bull. I thought I read dry lake bed, but am not sure. One thing that I have learned is that shots are not always as high as they appear. In watching thousands of bullets miss targets while ROing PRS style matches, one needs to take into account the foliage around the target. If there is 10" of grass and you see a dust cloud, the bullet impact is actually 10" lower than where the dust cloud appears. Not saying that this is happening in this case, but you did say that there was about 10" of grass where you were shooting, so maybe your shots weren't as high as you thought?

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe these misses were not as extreme as estimated.

 

[yobuck]

This is the best explanation that I have heard so far. Also, I am wondering what the area was behind the bull. I thought I read dry lake bed, but am not sure. One thing that I have learned is that shots are not always as high as they appear. In watching thousands of bullets miss targets while ROing PRS style matches, one needs to take into account the foliage around the target. If there is 10" of grass and you see a dust cloud, the bullet impact is actually 10" lower than where the dust cloud appears. Not saying that this is happening in this case, but you did say that there was about 10" of grass where you were shooting, so maybe your shots weren't as high as you thought?

I believe you will find he said he was looking thru grass in the scope as he shot. Which could have been at least a part of the problem. I believe he also said he had a spotter, which I assume means a buddy watching for hits.
So what was he (the spotter) doing for the 8 shots?
Why wasent he telling him (the shooter) where to hold for a follow up shot?
I mean thats the whole purpose of having a spotter.
I believe this whole situation was based on inexperience on the part of both shooter and spotter.
Go burn a bunch of ammo shooting at rocks or milk jugs, both shooter and spotter.
Learn how to get a bullet from point A the miss, to point B the target, without relying on toys and technical data.
Thats it, it's that easy, especially shots like that, and if it weren't that easy, then most of those who can, couldn't do it either.
It's gotten to the point that newcomers believe that if they haven't read certain books or haven't bought certain items, this stuff cant be done, and thats just plain BS. Go shoot first, then decide whats needed.

 

[Song Dogger]

Could you have just been excited and messed up?
There's a lot of little things that add up.
Length amplifies error.

I'd never discount that possibility. But, I will say I had plenty of time to consider the shots and discuss them with my spotter.

My spotter saw the herd first, then called me to his side of rock peak. They were 750 yards away. We watched for 5 minutes, discussing whether to go after that bull on the evening of the hunt's first day (both beams were busted above the G4). We decided to get closer and reevaluate, no big deal if they spooked since we were undecided. We walked upright, then bent over, and eventually slithered on our bellies for 100 yards to a bush. I watched the bull through my scope for 3-4 minutes, flipping my safety off and on several times, just couldn't decide if I wanted that particular bull. I then sat up and asked my spotter twice, should I or not, and he wanted nothing to do with that decision. I literally weighed the pros and cons, finally deciding to shoot to get back home for my family (our dog died that day). After the first shot sailed high, I sat up again to discuss the shot with my spotter, figured I was done. Then, he noticed the bull stopped broadside again, only 37 yards further than the 1st shot. I purposely left the turret alone, over 1 MOA less than called for, but still shot high. Each shot, I calmly reminded myself, "gently squeeze the trigger and stay behind the scope", a mantra I use while archery hunting too. Long story short (too late?), I discussed each shot with my spotter and never felt hurried, at least until I spined him and tried to finish him off.

All this transpired over a 20 minute period. I never felt more under control with an animal in the crosshairs. Operator error? Absolutely! But in this case, inadequate form and insufficient practice prone with a rear support is more likely the culprit vs "bull fever".

I'll elaborate more on my improper form. Prior to this, I was under the impression "the less I interact with the gun, the less mistakes I'd make". In practice, the Lead Sled braced the butt and I gently hung my fingers from under the fore end to avoid scope bite - no crosshair movement from breathing or heartbeats. When I shot this elk, it was a conscious decision to not touch the fore end, I did not lean into the bipod, and the butt barely touched my shoulder. Only my trigger arm, elbow on the ground, held the butt and crosshairs in place. My focus was steady crosshairs, and I achieved that.

But, I didn't consider that the gun kick would happen fast enough to affect bullet flight. But, it has to, right? It only takes nanoseconds for the bullet to leave the muzzle, but the forces driving the muzzle up and butt down are instantaneous. And, it wouldn't take much movement to affect bullet flight a couple feet at 450 yards.

To anyone skimming this thread - no need to say "sight in and practice using the technique with which you intend to hunt". We're on the same page now.

 

[Song Dogger]

Would that angle equal a full value wind?

On the earlier question of improper eye alignment. I would need to verify it on the range, but as quick test with my optics I moved from extreme edge to edge of the eye box and believe it would be hard to get that far off at 450. I think you'd lose the sight picture first.

My dad used to have a similar issue in the field with high shots. He eventually figured out that he was breaking form early trying to recover from the recoil and see the deer. (Dropping the stock)
A 300 mag with 210s has significant recoil. Could you have been breaking your position trying to follow these shots too the target?

If I understand "full wind value", the angle could not have accounted for it since the Geovid has no measurement or input for wind speed.

Agreed on sight picture - possibly a factor, but not accounting for the full error.

About breaking position to follow the shot - I vividly remember staying behind the scope to see each missed shot's impact behind the bull. Both the dust cloud and the bull were in the scope's sight picture, so I don't think I broke form early. Doubt my eyes could adjust quick enough from 12x power to the naked eye to see a puff of dust, anyway.

 

[Jeremyc]

I believe you will find he said he was looking thru grass in the scope as he shot. Which could have been at least a part of the problem. I believe he also said he had a spotter, which I assume means a buddy watching for hits.
So what was he (the spotter) doing for the 8 shots?
Why wasent he telling him (the shooter) where to hold for a follow up shot?
I mean thats the whole purpose of having a spotter.
I believe this whole situation was based on inexperience on the part of both shooter and spotter.
Go burn a bunch of ammo shooting at rocks or milk jugs, both shooter and spotter.
Learn how to get a bullet from point A the miss, to point B the target, without relying on toys and technical data.
Thats it, it's that easy, especially shots like that, and if it weren't that easy, then most of those who can, couldn't do it either.
It's gotten to the point that newcomers believe that if they haven't read certain books or haven't bought certain items, this stuff cant be done, and thats just plain BS. Go shoot first, then decide whats needed.

I agree. My point being that the spot of the miss is not actually where the bullet impacted. It took me awhile to learn that if I saw a dust cloud in 10" tall grass, the bullet impact is actually 10" lower than the dust cloud. I think that it takes a lot of time for many shooters to realize this. I shot half of a competition season and it took Jim See telling me this tip in a class for me to realize the mistakes that I was making. Maybe the miss was not as bad as he originally thought.

 

[Jeremyc]

If I understand "full wind value", the angle could not have accounted for it since the Geovid has no measurement or input for wind speed.

Agreed on sight picture - possibly a factor, but not accounting for the full error.

About breaking position to follow the shot - I vividly remember staying behind the scope to see each missed shot's impact behind the bull. Both the dust cloud and the bull were in the scope's sight picture, so I don't think I broke form early. Doubt my eyes could adjust quick enough from 12x power to the naked eye to see a puff of dust, anyway.

I would encourage you to use a ballistic program and make different range cards for different temperature and atmospheric conditions. I use JBMs solver and made dope cards from 100-1400 yards from 0* to 100* temps and from 0' Density altitude to 10,000' density altitude. It was a very educational process. I have the Kestrel with Applied ballistics, but creating the range cards gave me more information than I could ever have imagined. I don't think that it would have solved your problem, but it would help you if your batteries in your geovid die and solve as a double check in the field.