what kind of action???

[MontanaRifleman]

What I find very interesting is that when we are talkign about actions, we atribute good accuracy to the action. When we are talking about barrels, we atribute good accuracy to the barrel. When we are talking about bullets, we attribute good accuracy to the bullet, etc., etc.

In the final analysis one must consider all the components and factors involved.

An accurate rifle can be built on any action. There will always be anecdotal stories of well my Savage or my Remmy or my Ruger shoots. What does that prove or mean? one can find anecdotal horror stories as well which in my case I could tell about a Ruger M77 Tang Safety and a Sako M85.

I've got a couple of 1/2 MOA Senderos on untrued 700 actions. Replace the barrels with a factory production sporter barrels and replace the stock with an injection molded plastic stock and you will porbably not see 1/2 MOA accuarcy. Probably lucky to get 1 MOA. My first rifle ever, a R700 BDL 243 was a bout a 1 - 1 1/2 MOA shooter out of the box, shooting factory ammo. That said, my next rifle was a S&W M1500 (Howa) 7mm RM which was a 1/2 MOA shooter out of the box.

IMO, in the big picture, there are 3 types of factory action rifles you generally a lot of good about and almost nothing bad. They would be the M70, the Howa and the Savage. I can find a lot more issue and problem posts and threads about the others although there are always the good ones.

You see very few shooters sporting precision rifles on Browning and Ruger actions. Probably going to be stepping on some toes regarding that, but it is an objective and factual observation. If you take a close look at these actions and toss the anecdotal stories the reasons will become evident.

If you want to make an objective decision about "which action", then look at the facts objectively. Look at the features of the action and the overall big picture results.

 

[MudRunner2005]

What is wrong with the A-Bolt II platform? I have a 1/2MOA shooter in stock form. sporter barrel w/ BOSS, in the injection-molded plastic cheap stock that comes on the Composite Stalker models (which is what mine is). Sitting on the bags it will shoot ragged holes all day long (with time to let the barrel cool, of course.

Also, Christensen Arms builds custom rifles with carbon-fiber wrapped barrels on A-Bolt II actions, Rem 700, Win 70, etc... Obviously the A-Bolts must not be a bad action if a $3,000+ rifle is being built on them.

Seriously, tell me what is wrong with the A-Bolt II action.

It's not b/c I own one that I'm trying to somehow protect it.....But I have had 2 of those identical rifles and both were 1/4-1/2 MOA shooters straight out of the box. They were also built years and years apart. How could that just be coincidence? Same goes for my Rem 700's. Long and short actions. Same scenario...Years apart, same incredible accuracy.

Why do the new Rugers not perform like the old Rugers do?

Granted, with everything man-made there is gonna be flaws and you will get some lemons. But you rarely see a 700 not shooting under MOA out of the box. I've shot ALOT of different guns, and ALOT of different brands. Some custom, most factory. And I have to say that there will be good and bad in every brand, but to say that Rem 700's are plagued with problems is just plain proposterous.

 

[BrentM]

I must have missed any negative comments about the A bolt. What I read was a that they are all good enough it may seem. Pick the feature you like and move forward. I am about ready to buy an action for a new build so all of this info is interesting to me. It also kind of supports my own thinking, they can all do the job, pick your preference, move on, and happy shooting. I find the savage action to be interesting. I am getting to use to mine and feel like if I close my eye's I would never know what is securing that cartridge in the chamber.

Reminds, me, I really need to dig that 700 out and shoot it again.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I must have missed any negative comments about the A bolt. What I read was a that they are all good enough it may seem. Pick the feature you like and move forward. I am about ready to buy an action for a new build so all of this info is interesting to me. It also kind of supports my own thinking, they can all do the job, pick your preference, move on, and happy shooting. I find the savage action to be interesting. I am getting to use to mine and feel like if I close my eye's I would never know what is securing that cartridge in the chamber.

Reminds, me, I really need to dig that 700 out and shoot it again.

I believe he said this....And I quote.

"You see very few shooters sporting precision rifles on Browning and Ruger actions. Probably going to be stepping on some toes regarding that, but it is an objective and factual observation. If you take a close look at these actions and toss the anecdotal stories the reasons will become evident."

I agree with your comment. They are all good in their own right. Some will have flaws that others don't and so-on. However, all will have some sort of flaws, regardless of make and model. It all comes down to preference.

About the only action you will hear me call junk will be the Howa 1500 action. Simply b/c I had one, and it felt horribly wibbly and fiddly with the bolt locked and with the bolt extended felt like I could wiggle it enough that it would just pop right out.

Other than that, I have no true testiment to have good of quality the action itself is, as I chose to never shoot the gun, but trade it off, still in like new condition. The action just did not impress me.

 

[Daveinjax]

My question is why so little love for the push feed m70 action ? I have one now that I'm debating whether I should keep and rebarrel it or sell it off. It's a wsm action and it seems well made and I never hear horror storys about them like I have experienced with my 700 Remington.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mud, I can see this getting into another ****ing contest with you and I'm not going there.

I'll repeat... you can build an accurate rifle off of any action.

That said, some actions tend to have more "issues" and need more work than others which require more cast.

There are a number of ways to weigh the quality of an action to include, fit and finish, appearance, safety, precision machining and craftsmanship, and function.

Specific features to consider include bolt design and construction, extractor type, ejector type, firing pin construction and function, gas porting, type feed, recoil lug design and construction, trigger/safety design and function, receiver design and strength.

No one action has all the best features, design and construction. You can probably find a feature from any one action that is superior to other actions, except maybe the 700. It's an overall good or OK action, but it doesn't have a single feature or component that another action isn't superior to.

I've been reading these threads for years and and 95% of them boil down to a bunch of subjective gobilty goop. I don't care what my Granpappy shot, bless his soul. I'll treasure his gun because it's his gun but that's where it stops. And I don't care that my cousin Billy Bob headshot a deer @ 300 yds with his blankety blank rifle. Some people just do not know how to separate the subjective fantasy world from the objective REAL world. Oh well... That's not me. I don't give a flying spaghetti monster what label the product is wearing or where it was made. I care about one thing only and that's quality and results... I guess that's two things.

So I am going to give you a little anecdotal example of "looking under the hood".

I had heard many great things both in person and on the internet about Sako's. So a few years back I was looking for a new "go to" hunting rifle. Looked at a bunch and got offered a good deal on a really cool looking Sako M85 Finnlight 300 WSM. the action was about the sweetest action I ever worked and it "looked" SWEET. I did not really understand what I was buying at the time but I was to find out the hard way over the next couple of years. You Tikka guys might want to pay attention to this as well.

So I get my rifle, work up some loads and start shooting to see what's best. Nothing is good. My groups are 1 1/2 to 3 MOA. All loads are inconsistent and not one is better than another to include factory loads.

I send it back to Beretta because it has a 1 MOA guarantee. They send it back saying they cleaned it and fired it and there is nothing wrong. I take it back to the range several more times with various loads and same thing. BTW it is wearing a NF NXS scope which I have used on a 300 RUM to shoot sub 1/2 MOA groups. So it's not me and it's not the scope.

So I send it back again. And they return it again saying the same thing and tell me they are going to charge me if I send it back to them again. I am NOT a happy camper now. So I turn to the forum for help and this is what I learn...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/no-recoil-lug-what-say-ye-49659/

Moral of the story... Disregard marketing and endorsements by subjective brand name lovers and flag waivers. Now it's true that a lot of Sako's and Tikkas shoot very well, but I found through this long process that there were a lot of guys like me that got raped by Beretta with poor performing Tikka's and Sako's.

ATM, this rifle is at the smith getting a $200 custom made recoil lug. Mot really sure if that is the problem or the barrel. i will find out through and expensive process of elimination.

One thing I do know is, I will never but another Tikka or Sako based on their recoil design and CS.

After this experience, I started 'looking under the hood"

 

[MontanaRifleman]

And BTW Mud, you are the only person I know or have read to describe your experience with a Howa action in that way. I have owned several different types of rifles and actions and the Howa/Vanguards are among the best, right up there with the M70 than all the rest. Maybe a truck ran over your Howa? or maybe you don't know how to think objectively? Don't have any flying spaghetti monster nightmares tonight.

 

[MudRunner2005]

The Howa I had was horribly fitted. It was a new/used gun I bought when I worked at the gunstore (11 years ago). It was used, but unfired. Bought it for $200, which was our cost on it. It was horrible. It was so bad I traded it off 2 years later, unfired.

I may be the first, but you will learn that I don't exaggerate things.

What good does it do to exaggerate or push people into a direction they don't want to go?

Oh, and the spaghetti monsters are still ying above you. LOL

PS - We don't get into ****ing matches, we have logical debates that sometimes get excited.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Oh, and the spaghetti monsters are still ying above you. LOL

Yeah, I figured as much

 

[Bart B]

No one action has all the best features, design and construction. You can probably find a feature from any one action that is superior to other actions, except maybe the 700. It's an overall good or OK action, but it doesn't have a single feature or component that another action isn't superior to.

If you infer that some of the 700's features are not as good as what those in another action are, then I agree. The Rem. 7XX actions are all decendants of their Model 30 which is a commercial version of the M1917 Enfield .30-06 service rifle. Because of these shortcomings, they were not popular in the competitive shooting discipline that's closest to use afield for hunting purposes.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

If you infer that some of the 700's features are not as good as what those in another action are, then I agree. The Rem. 7XX actions are all decendants of their Model 30 which is a commercial version of the M1917 Enfield .30-06 service rifle. Because of these shortcomings, they were not popular in the competitive shooting discipline that's closest to use afield for hunting purposes.

I will give some examples. In comparing the 700 bolt to the Howa bolt, the Howa is one piece construction. The bolt body is ported and the extractor is an M16 style. Comparing the recoil lug, the 700 has a ring type that is fitted around the the shank of the barrelbetween the barrel and the reciever. The Howa and M70 have beefy integral lugs cast or machined as part of the receiver. The M70 being a bit larger than the Howa. For fit, finish and workmanship, most actions if not all, that I am familiar with are of a higher standard than the 700. The Sako is at the top of the heap in this category. However, the Sako has a pathetic recoil lug system. If it had a good integral lug, IMO it would be the best of the factory produced actions. What a pity...

 

[Bart B]

Some of those Remington recoil lugs on magnum rifles have bent forward from recoil. I've seen two of them myself. A rather weak part those chambered for the larger magnum rounds.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Some of those Remington recoil lugs on magnum rifles have bent forward from recoil. I've seen two of them myself. A rather weak part those chambered for the larger magnum rounds.

Yeah, and some posters here don't seem to believe that can happen? That is why my 300 RUM 700 build is getting the factory lug replaced with the heavy duty over sized lug.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Well, if this is gonna turn into a Rem 700 bash-fest, without substantial proof, then I'm done here. I don't bash on any action. That Howa was the only one I've ever owned that was horrible, and I plan on never owning another one. I could have gotten a lemon, but b/c I had a lemon, and mention it, yall wanna bash some more on the 700's.

It's pathetic how bad disgust yall have for the 700's, even though they are good actions. When someone mentions a 700 action, why do you always feel it necessary to try to change their mind? Has it ever occured to you that forcing your own agenda onto someone might push them away further? Well it does. Just FYI.