What is the best scope on the market PERIOD?
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Tell that to Neil Armstrong when he looked outside his lunar lander and saw nothing but boulders-then his computers went down with less than 60 seconds of fuel to land. He grabbed the controls and did a miracle joy stick landing in an unprescribed landing site with less the 12 seconds of fuel between life and death. He did it by feel and experience.
I'm not knocking you, I believe in the scientific method too- well 90% of it anyway- the other 10% remains unexplained and the cause of raging philosophic debates around the campfire.
Klee
OK... back to the original post... which doesn't quite match the thread title.
Everyone comes at this question with their own unique priorities and wants.
This is Long Range Hunting and I assume this scope is for hunting unless otherwise stated. When I think of hunting, it includes a lot of rugged terrain and differing, sometimes extreme weather and enviromental conditions. Maybe that's not everyone's idea of hunting, but it is mine. I have fallen hard, twice now, on my scope in as many years in the field. Most recently, walking down a FS road with boiler plate ice covered over by about 1/2' of fresh snow. My feet went out and up from under me and I landed square on my rifle and scope (slung across my back) which landed on the hard as concrete, ice cover road.
If we were asking what the best LR paper target scope is, I would only be reading this thread and not posting in it. I would put a lot higher emphasis on glass quality and resolution than for a hunting scope. Interestingly enough, NF claims its scopes are used on more winning competive shooting rifles than any other scope, and I dont see that being disputed. For a hunting scope, you need enough resolution to shoot game at whatever distance you want to shoot it at and the longest recorded sniper kill was with a NF 5.5-22x50 at 2430 m, which is maybe about 2700 yds? That's far enough for me and I feel that I can easily use that scope set on 5.5x to hold on a deer size animal out to 1500 yds if I needed to.
I've read one member's assessment of Loopy glass being equal to NF glass and I'll have to take him at his word based on his experience. But sitting here in from of my monitor I have read many other reports that NF glass is superior to Loopy glass. I have only once or twice looked through a Loopy in the store, and not next to a NF. I have also read a whole lot more cases of Loopys being sent in for repairs than NF. Good CS is great, but I would rather not deal with CS at all. What I can say about NF glass is that it is excellent. I can count 30 cal bullet holes on a paper target at 427 yds on with my 5.5-22x50 NXS set on 22x. How far can one see 30 cal bullet holes with a Loopy, or a Zeiss or a high end Zeiss or a USO or a S&B, etc.? I can also see well past "legal shooting hours" with my NF and fairly good on 5.5x in good moonlight. If my hunting included hunting lions in moonlight, well then I would probably pick the S&B. If we're talking dark night conditions, it's time to break out the NV scopes.
I consider NF to be the starting rung in the high end scopes and for hunting purposes, the possible superiority of the glass of the other high end scopes is not needed - but if that's what turns you on, then go ahead and lay down the $$$.
Of higher prority to me than the very best glass is function and ruggedness. Back to zero everytime, even after you fall off your horse.
What scope tracks better than a NF? And what scope will track better than a NF 10 or 20 years after purchase and hunting?
What scope is as, or more rugged than a NF?
What scope can stand up to as much, or more recoil forces than a NF?
What scope can endure as much, or more enviromental extremes than a NF?
Yup, I'm a NF fan
In the end... to each his own.
"I can count 30cal. holes on paper at 427 yrds ." Can you do that in bright sun light ? The reason I ask is because I have a loopy 6.5X20X50 and at 397 I couldn't even see 1 bullet hole i'll be fair and say that I was shooting at a peace of white copying paper and the sun was reflecting off of my target . I have often wondered if a NF would be better ? If and when I have the money I'm going to go with a NF. MontanaRifleman's post above says it all to me...
Bigbuck
I have owned both for several years and I like them both very much. The S&B have proven to be extremely reliable for me and so have the Nightforce, but there resolution and optical Clarity is better in the S&B's. The Nighforce scope are very good in the optical department, at least mine are and are very close to the S&B.
I know that S&B won the Marine contract, therefore the Marines thought they were rugged.
The PMll series of scopes came about because of Accuracy International's efforts to get a better sniper scope produced. The Britts use S&B.
I do not know if one is more rugged than the other or not, I do know that they are both rugged and the 2 are the premier long range hunting and Sniper scopes in the world IMHO
My Nightforce scopes have been in just as rugged of terrain and on horse back as well and both performed as expected
There is also a new player that has gotten very good reviews by its owners and that is the Premeir Heritage scopes. I have no experience with these scope and only time will tell if they are in the class of Nighforce and S&B IMHO
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MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Bigbuck, that is in "good" light conditions and no mirage. I print my own targets form 8 1/2x11 copy paper and bullet holes show up fairly well against the white paper. IMO, it is a great test of resolution. With my old B&L 2 1/2-10 scopes, I could barely count bullet holes @ 100 yds on 10x, and I though they were good scopes (which they were) when I bought them over 20 years ago.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
JWP, the S&B's sound like very good scopes and if the Marines choose them that's a good endorsement... However... I am intimately familiar with the military decision and procurment process (I've been apart of it) and it doesn't always make the best choices.
No doubt the S&B's are good tough scopes, but for the diffence in price and my needs, I could not justify the additonal cost.
The biggest difference in price with the S&B is when compared to the SFP NXS. The NXS FFP scope is much closer in price to the S&B which is a FFP scope
As I said both are very good and at this level one must split hairs to have an opinion as to the "best
I'd like to re-energize this thread to keep it going.
I have never understood why nobody does any resolution tests on scopes to finally put to rest all the speculation, conjecture and posturing.
This is really a question to those of you who might know, e.g. any resident optical engineers? As a simpleton, I envision setting up a resolution chart at a known distance and controlling as many variables as possible, time of day, temp, ocular adjustment to name a few.
Why would that be so hard? Obviously I am missing something, any ideas what that is?
I guess I see resolution as the prime factor for the "best" scope. Contrast is a close second but also integral to resolution. These two variables are what enable us to differentiate game from weeds, and to shoot in low light conditions.
Let me personalize this a little, as a guy who has been loosing his great eye sight for 15-20 years it seems that these two qualities of a scope become more and more important. I just can't see what I used to be able to see. Simple magnification has to many mirage side effects.
So somebody educate me . . . please.
Best,
Ross
I have never understood why nobody does any resolution tests on scopes to finally put to rest all the speculation, conjecture and posturing.
This is really a question to those of you who might know, e.g. any resident optical engineers? As a simpleton, I envision setting up a resolution chart at a known distance and controlling as many variables as possible, time of day, temp, ocular adjustment to name a few.
Why would that be so hard? Obviously I am missing something, any ideas what that is?
I guess I see resolution as the prime factor for the "best" scope. Contrast is a close second but also integral to resolution. These two variables are what enable us to differentiate game from weeds, and to shoot in low light conditions.
Let me personalize this a little, as a guy who has been loosing his great eye sight for 15-20 years it seems that these two qualities of a scope become more and more important. I just can't see what I used to be able to see. Simple magnification has to many mirage side effects.
So somebody educate me . . . please.
Best,
Ross
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Ross,
There may be some who disagree, but I personally don't think that resolution is the most important or "prime" factor for a hunting scope. I do think that it is very important to a degree, but assuming that resolution is adequate for the use intended, i.e. shooting a deer @ 1000 yds, the most important thing is that the scope is dependable and rugged enough to provide predictable and repeatable results. And IMHO (the "H" part may be questionable) this makes NF NXS's about the perfect LR Hunting scopes. They may not have quite the optics that some other scopes have, but their optics are exceptional from my view, much more than I really need for 1K shooting in any "hunting light" conditions. I think the most important reason for a hunting scope to have good optics is for load development and being able to accurately see the POA and put the cross hairs precisely there.
In this case the OP said the scope is not for hunting and he opted for an S&B which might be the best choice for him.
So when we're considering "what the best scope is?" We need to define what it's being used for.
I completely agree that there should be an objective test for scopes that test all the attributes. Resolution, light gathering, contrast, repeatability and ruggedness to name a few.
One thing about optics is that making lenses is as much a skill as it is a science and there will be some variance from lens to lens and scope to scope from the same manufacturer. You would need a good random sample population for each scope type to get an accurate range of quality.
-Mark
There are objective test that have been performed and the S&B come out at the top of the pack.
Theis being a long range hunting site I assume that the question is about long range hunting scopes. As I stated before both Nightforce and S&B are very rugged and precise in their adjuctments and the only thing that I see seperating them is the view and S&B wins that one.
If the view is not important to some one then it is no big deal. I have and continue to use NXS scopes successfuly, but to decide which is best one must split hairs
John Barnesness did the test on Optics Talk. COM. He tested the S&B 2X10 Summit and it was the highest resolving scope that he had ever tested. Later he tested a Swarovski that also resolved and 8 and he compared the 2 and thought the S&B was a bit better, but eventualy decide it was too close to call
I know my S&B 5X25 PMll resolved as well as my Swarovski 20X60X80 spotter and that is saying something
