What frequency of Annealing for best case life and consisitent accuracy?

[Don A Parsons]

This was posted on this forum a while back.
It's a on going study as these folks continue testing many brands of cases.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

I no nill about this stuff, but will continue learning more on this before venturing down this path.

Western Canada Don

 

[jimbires]

Annealing is just like everything else. Test it before and after, test it with different levels of annealing along with different sized neck bushings. I do recommend developing the load with un annealed cases unless you have previous experience with the cartridge and know the combo likes annealing. I am an annealer, but you can not assume anything and what works for one guy does not mean it will work in your combo. Many things may seduce you at the loading bench, bullets seat very nice with annealed cases, but the target is all that matters.

how do you achieve different levels of anneal ?

 

[Buckskinner]

That is a good read

This was posted on this forum a while back.
It's a on going study as these folks continue testing many brands of cases.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

I no nill about this stuff, but will continue learning more on this before venturing down this path.

Western Canada Don

 

[Alex Wheeler]

how do you achieve different levels of anneal ?

Time in the flame. I use the benchsource and like to the see the flame just start to turn orange as the case is rotating out of the flame. In my early days of annealing I tried it by hand and had poor results. If you are not using an automated machine to ensure consistency I would not anneal your cases. You just can not get consistent enough results without a machine IMO

 

[Don A Parsons]

The reason I haven't attempted to anneal brass is because I haven't learned the proper way to go about it.

Its an art un-too its self.

There is miss information out there, but between the lines are some "WISE" ideas.
If one chooses to read threw all the posts, a person can find the person(s) to follow along with.

My friend who has some years under his belt in BR and F Class is schooling me.

Some folks fear getting schooled,,, but I welcome it since it will "hopefully" allow me to climb the ladder.

As my good friend said.

Sometimes even the wisest get schooled in their game.

Learn this schooling model from those that are wise to,,, take this info and improve on it.

The big expensive machine ideas are out there, no disrespect too them either as they offer Q&C like no other,,, there are other options that come close to this quality at a fraction less in costs.

But,,, and I tread lightly on this but.
It is wise to allow your funds to benefit your results. This is what the goal is in the field of accuracy.
If the quest is to push theses limits,,, research all angles of it so we are not waisting our funds, and the funds we do spend gets us to where we want to be.

Don

 

[jimbires]

Time in the flame. I use the benchsource and like to the see the************ flame ***********just start to turn orange as the case is rotating out of the flame. In my early days of annealing I tried it by hand and had poor results. If you are not using an automated machine to ensure consistency I would not anneal your cases. You just can not get consistent enough results without a machine IMO

thank you Alex ,
I'm assuming you mean " neck " by my *********** in your quote . do you anneal in a dark room ?

I set up to anneal in a dark room . I don't get any orange look . I just start to get the faint dull red look when I rotate out of the flame . I do use a machine with 750* tempilaq .

 

[Alex Wheeler]

No, I actually watch the flame after it is deflected off the neck. The blue flame will turn orange just before the neck itself starts to turn orange. As soon as I see that orange flame I am done. My experience with templaq is it melts too soon. I also dont like the residue it leaves.

 

[Mikecr]

But for all we know, that 'orange' in the flame means only that the surface has reached a temperature where zinc is burning out of the alloy.
If true, that would be well above process annealing temperature, and likely above full anneal temp as well (on the surface).
It may work with your brass thickness, while representing a disaster point for another thickness.

This IMO, is why folks need to be exploring dummy proof process annealing,, which is dipping. Then again, there are no limits to stupid..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

But for all we know, that 'orange' in the flame means only that the surface has reached a temperature where zinc is burning out of the alloy.
If true, that would be well above process annealing temperature, and likely above full anneal temp as well (on the surface).
It may work with your brass thickness, while representing a disaster point for another thickness.

This IMO, is why folks need to be exploring dummy proof process annealing,, which is dipping. Then again, there are no limits to stupid..

It was good enough to set 2 world records at 1k. The orange flame is certainly an indicator of the temp of the neck. The time it takes to reach it will change with thickness. A local shooter has access to a metallurgist lab and has sent out samples of brass for analysis. All I will say is the orange tinted flame will continue to be my method if I choose to anneal. Annealing and if your rifle will like it has far more to do with the powder your using than anything else.

 

[jimbires]

No, I actually watch the flame after it is deflected off the neck. The blue flame will turn orange just before the neck itself starts to turn orange. As soon as I see that orange flame I am done. My experience with templaq is it melts too soon. I also dont like the residue it leaves.

I'll have to pay attention to my flame next time I anneal .

 

[Beneviolence]

That's not correct regarding the quenching in water.
Brass is one of the few metals that NEEDS to be heated cherry red, then IMMEDIATELY quenched in cold water.
This is even written up to this effect in reloading manuals.
In 18 years of regularly doing this to various calibres, especially 300 WM, I've never had a cracked case, only very long case life.
You should only be heating the neck.

And what metallurgical rationale do you have for that? Are you trying to impart residual stresses? Produce quenched in vacancies? The only rationale I could see that makes sense would be to make sure the body of the case doesn't get annealed.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is that where you stop yielding(up or down sizing), you stop hardening. That firing itself does not harden brass or lead to a need for annealing.

Maybe I have a loose chamber neck, but my once fired brass is always larger diameter and has less neck tension than after seating the bullet (if I seat/pull compared to seat/fire). In my mind, that shows the act of firing expands it, and if it's expanding the case to the OD then it is plastically deforming the material and work hardening it.

 

[ChrisInKY]

I use the benchsource and like to the see the flame just start to turn orange as the case is rotating out of the flame.

+1 This is a visual observation I can echo when using the same equipment. I normally don't make the observation though until I'm well into a run.

The Tempilaq makes quite the mess, but I only use it on the first few pieces of brass to ensure (chemically) I'm never over-cooking. When you get old, your observations and reactions slow enough you find yourself in need of a crutch. -grin An extra three minutes or so of brushing ain't so bad.

Thanks for your contributions to this site, Alex. You're a smart man.

 

[ChrisInKY]

This IMO, is why folks need to be exploring dummy proof process annealing,, which is dipping. Then again, there are no limits to stupid..

It's okay to criticize visual observation as an inconsistent or poor measure of quality control. But, dipping has no provision allowing for such observation. And dipping (if it's done improperly) could more easily lead to a compromise of the case web - IMNSHO. I'll continue to anneal with my case necks oriented skyward.

Annealing a case neck only requires the brass be brought to 'the correct' temperature and held there for the appropriate amount of time. It's the temperature reduction process that has the more profound effect when seeking consistency in resetting the alloy's natural molecular structure. Much as work-hardening has a more profound/immediate effect on neck tension.

 

[Don A Parsons]

I like this thread, its nice to gather information of ones choosing where we can see where the bears crap in the buck-wheat, "so to speak of that is."

This brings up a question that ponders my mine.

As I mentioned in my above post, I do not anneal my brass, because I haven't taken it to task yet.

Now that all of us have some fantastic info to work with, and the extra links, on top of our own CDO level. I have a thought going here.

As stated, it might not be wize to over cook the cases, so let's not go down that road.

What would happen if a person did a 1/2 to 3/4 constant heat process in stead of closing the gap of the 400 C to 750 F heat cycle,,, again,,, exact same brass with touches that produce consistant heat the full duration.

Example might be:

680F for fast flash burn of 1.7 seconds.
Of course all 100 peaces of same lot brass are run threw the process to a T.

My question is,,, would all 100 peaces of same lot of cases end up with the same neck tension? So long as the heat source and spot on timing was kept the same.

The brass under the microscope post mentioned that next to nill happened to the "cases they we're testing in lab" at 660 F,,, but at 750 F the process were getting things moving... Again,,, the brass cases they we're using that is.

When I mentioned the 680 F, this is the lesser of middle grounds of 660F to 750F,

I'm guessing, but in most cases that the brass content would hopefully start to "flow" or corlagulate if that's even a word meaning "metals and materials are able to move adhear, join together after shooting or case sizing processes which tear and stretch the bound-age of materials apart."

Annealing is the idea of joining these materials back to gather, yes. The main goal is to have neck tension on bullets to same.

So, what happens if all the same lot brass cases only get a constant across the board annealing process.

Yes, the spring back on neck tension won't be like cases that are new,,, can a person re-adjust the reloading dies to compensate for neck tension of all 100 cases.

Just a question to ask since mid way annealing might also be a option.

Don't know, this is why I ask.

Don from Western Canada