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What does a custom build rig really get you???

Beaver10 said:
Lately, I've been having a lot of self talks, about why I continue to have customs built for me versus buying a production rifle, and making minor corrections to it, such as new trigger, bed or float the barrel if needed, and maybe flipping it into a new stock.

These small changes that can make a production line rifle more accurate and comfortable to shoot and is a lot more cost effective than selling blood to fund a full build...In the end, what did we truly gain over a boxed rifle, if both shoot sub groups?

Here's the question...If rubber meeting the road is based on paper, steel, and fur accuracy. Then a box rifle that shoots "even-steven" MOA consistently over 10 rounds and sub MOA on 3 shot groups. What did a guy spending $4k gain, if his rifle does the same?

This question is coming from a guy who has over 15 custom builds. Aside, from pride of ownership and a certain level of confidence knowing that the parts pieced together, both internally and externally are some of the best made today...It doesn't change the fact that a guy who bought a production rifle, can hit the daily-lottery, and have an excellent shooting rig that can hang with a custom all day long.

Who's the smarter guy?
Click to expand...

I think the only reason to go with a custom nowadays is if you want some wildcat cartridge.

Bergara Premier, Christensen Arms, Cooper, Seekins etc all have amazing rifles for less than $2k with accuracy guarantees that will hang with almost any custom.

Truth is, there are rifles a lot cheaper that will hang with any custom from an accuracy standpoint.

With accuracy guarantees, there isn't a lot of risk anymore.
 
fiftybmg said:
This matches with what I've observed in all high speed camera shots - the bullet is long gone before the gas somes out, and there is no recoil impulse untill the gas is out. Which raises an interesting point.

I met a machine shop owner that was an avid hunter, but wrenched his shooting shoulder, and couldn't tolerate recoil for many months. He experimented on his rifle, and virtually eliminated the recoil by diverting most of the gas before it got to the muzzle. His conclusion was that it's the gas producing recoil, not the bullet. By diverting the gas flow 90 degrees away from the direction of the bullet travel, the recoil was eliminated.

A lot of people would say that the rearward motion of the rifle is cancelled by the forward motion of the gas, but here's where it becomes interesting - if the bullet is long gone before the gas comes out, and there is no recoil impulse till the gas comes out, does it not show that it's the gas producing recoil, not the m x v of the bullet.
Click to expand...


I have done many test on muzzle brakes and made design changes to see the effects
of these changes. I don't claim to know everything about muzzle brakes, But I will take credit for knowing more than most because I have proven many things wrong and just as many things right. All test were to prove or disprove to allow design changes and avoid hear say and wives tales.

I always hesitate to make statements without proof so I do the test and many times it has proven my beliefs wrong, but the test were conclusive so I will state fatcs as I know them.

There are two kinds of recoil. Inertial from the bullet, (Newtons law) when you move the bullet forward it creates recoil in the opposite direction. The amount depends on velocity and bullet weight.

Next is gas recoil. This is the medium that the muzzle brake uses to reduce recoil. The design(Shape and orientation) and the volume of the ports has the most effect on the performance of the muzzle brake in reducing recoil.

The combination of the bullet recoil (The muzzle brake has no control over this) and the volume of gas from the powder charge producing recoil combined IS the total recoil of the rifle. The ratio of bullet weight and gas volume determines the amount of recoil depending on rifle weight.

The efficiency of the brake is measured in ft/lbs minus the maximum gas recoil. Some cartridges have a ratio of 30/70 and others have 50/50. so when calculating the potential recoil the correct for the cartridge has to be use. If it is 50/50 you can only depend on a portion of the 50% based on the design of the brake. the higher the powder ratio (Like 25/75) you can count on more than 40 to 50 % recoil reduction if the brake design if efficient because the manageable recoil is more than the bullet recoil.

Now for the other issue, Accuracy. Brakes do not hurt accuracy if they are installed correctly. The reason is, first they manage the gas recoil. Next they add weight to the muzzle and or change the actual length of the barrel changing the harmonics. The final part is that the reduced recoil reduces the barrel harmonics making the rifle more forgiving. And the total effect of less recoil has a great deal to do with shooter proficiency as explained in earlier post.

I don't build muzzle brake to sell as aftermarket items and only to my friends that want more recoil reduction, so they are designed for their rifle only to get the most from them. I don't have a dog in the hunt to sell muzzle brakes so this information can be taken any way a person wants.

This will probably bring a storm of opinions and all i can say is i have tested these things and have proof of the results so this is not opinions or hearsay.

Without exception, every rifle/pistol i have installed a muzzle brake on correctly has shot better for one reason or the other.

Sorry for the long post

J E CUSTOM
 
BallisticsGuy said:
Horse pucky.
Click to expand...

I agree the thread is derailed but I still like BallisticsGuy's appropriate use of a "Sherman Potterism" here. "Buffalo Chips" and "Beaver Biscuits" also come to mind.

Anyway, I'm late to the party but I also like VarmintHunter's take on the situation. Everything's relative and a lot of us aren't shooting out to 1,000 yards. I got one "Custom" rifle - a bargain basement Savage Predator in 6.5-284 I ordered from their Custom shop. It produces 1/4 to 1/2 MOA at the distances I shoot (see target in my Avatar). More than sufficient for me. Total Investment plus a 1k scope - $2400.

I've got several Coopers too and they are 1/4 to .5 MOA shooters (with hand loads) but for all intents and purposes, they are "production" rifles.

So, as much as I'd like to, Why in the name of Carrie's Corset would I spend 2.5 to 3x what I need to when I can get a very nice production rifle and use my modest skills as a hand loader to improve its accuracy by perhaps 20-50%? At the distances I'm shooting, it's a no-brainer. I'd also have to admit that I've never had the misfortune of buying a production rifle that ended up being a "lemon" but am entirely aware of the possibility.
 
WildRose said:
Honestly if you add up all the pieces and parts from stocks to triggers to rails etc that we retrofit an average rifle trying to get all we can out of it, the cost of most customs starts looking more and more reasonable.
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This is so true, especially when it come to the 10/22's that I have modified. Heck they are more expensive than my deer rifle, come to think of it.
 
Every time I start a thread it flys off in a different direction. Often very good and technical discussion. I like it that way.
 
YZ-80 said:
I agree the thread is derailed but I still like BallisticsGuy's appropriate use of a "Sherman Potterism" here. "Buffalo Chips" and "Beaver Biscuits" also come to mind.

Anyway, I'm late to the party but I also like VarmintHunter's take on the situation. Everything's relative and a lot of us aren't shooting out to 1,000 yards. I got one "Custom" rifle - a bargain basement Savage Predator in 6.5-284 I ordered from their Custom shop. It produces 1/4 to 1/2 MOA at the distances I shoot (see target in my Avatar). More than sufficient for me. Total Investment plus a 1k scope - $2400.

I've got several Coopers too and they are 1/4 to .5 MOA shooters (with hand loads) but for all intents and purposes, they are "production" rifles.

So, as much as I'd like to, Why in the name of Carrie's Corset would I spend 2.5 to 3x what I need to when I can get a very nice production rifle and use my modest skills as a hand loader to improve its accuracy by perhaps 20-50%? At the distances I'm shooting, it's a no-brainer. I'd also have to admit that I've never had the misfortune of buying a production rifle that ended up being a "lemon" but am entirely aware of the possibility.
Click to expand...
Yeah sure
sturner said:
I make a motion for the OP to rename the thread
Click to expand...

Fine...This thread is hereby renamed "Box Rifles that shoot good make custom owners mad" LMAO
 
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