What does a custom build rig really get you???

[J E Custom]

Price Seems to be part of the debate, but people forget that there are factory rifles that far exceed the cost of a custom. there are factory built rifles that range from $400.00 to $15,000 that don't shoot any better than almost any custom rifle. In fact even buying the highest price factory rifle doesn't guaranty it will out shoot any custom built rifle.

The odds of getting a factory rifle at any price that will shoot 1/10th MOA are slim to none. But a custom rifle has a much better chance by a large margin.

If you spend $3.000 + and get a custom rifle built there is a very good chance it will shoot less that a 1/2 MOA . There is almost no chance that a factory rifle will do it consistently. Out of over 30 factory rifles that I have purchased only 2 would shoot under 1/2 moa even after working up loads for them. Of the over 30 custom rifles I have owned only one or two would"NOT" consistently shoot under 1/2 MOA.

So if you want to improve the odds of buying a 1/2 MOA or better rifle you buy a custom built by a real Gunsmith. For those that feel 1 MOA is good enough, the factory rifle is an option but still no guaranty because many have trouble shooting
1 & 1/2 MOA.

Everyone has probably owned a real good shooting Factory rifle, but that is the exception not the rule. and If you spend more money on improvements to try to make it better. there is still the chance that it wont improve that much and you will have spent most of what it would cost to build a real shooter and still not have a 1/4 MOA rifle.

So in my opinion, a well made custom rifle is still the best bang for the buck. and in most cases the custom rifle will cost between 2 and 3,000 dollars (Less than many high end factory rifles.

Quality and accuracy are built in, not bought.

J E CUSTOM

 

[dfanonymous]

I gotta disagree with the muzzlebrake and trigger comments. A muzzlebrake can definitely help on big calibers. You and I debated this a lot in the past, so I won't start up again
A light trigger takes another variable out, which is our goal. I would bet the best shooter in the world would handicap himself (or herself....sigh) with an 8lb trigger regardless of their technique.

So again, it's a handicap for what's already a problem. Trigger control and not imparting bad pressures on the rifle is all you need. Anything else is a crutch. I use a crutch, not because i have an issue, it because i like two stage triggers, and because it's a crutch. I don't have to think about what my finger is doing as much at 3 lbs. but I recognize it's a crutch, and I can still take a .mil mk12 and shoot it's to a degree of accuracy even with a 6-8 lb trigger.

A break doesn't help. The fact that gases will start to move the to leave into the ports of a break (however small) before the bullet leaves the barrel is already causing unintended barrel harmonics is reason enough. This gets worst with bigger bore weapons. More, so, it's just not that necessary. Again, if recoil reduction is your goal then whatever, especially if it's a simple case of one not liking the feel of recoil, but it's recoil reduction is your goal because you don't know how to implement good recoil management, then again, you are covering a problem that already exist. Noticed everyone on here's post when someone ask how to trace their shots? "Oh easy brah, just get a """muzzle break"", you'll be able to shoot a .300 mag and trace your shots!!!"""
If they ain't a geriatric or without medical condition, then they are skipping the basics of marksmanship, and trying to use an edge or buy yourself into the game. Not mastering something. There in lies a big disconnect.

It might not be the popular answer but, it's not untrue.

 

[Mram10us]

So again, it's a handicap for what's already a problem. Trigger control and not imparting bad pressures on the rifle is all you need. Anything else is a crutch. I use a crutch, not because i have an issue, it because i like two stage triggers, and because it's a crutch. I don't have to think about what my finger is doing as much at 3 lbs. but I recognize it's a crutch, and I can still take a .mil mk12 and shoot it's to a degree of accuracy even with a 6-8 lb trigger.

A break doesn't help. The fact that gases will start to move the to leave into the ports of a break (however small) before the bullet leaves the barrel is already causing unintended barrel harmonics is reason enough. This gets worst with bigger bore weapons. More, so, it's just not that necessary. Again, if recoil reduction is your goal then whatever, especially if it's a simple case of one not liking the feel of recoil, but it's recoil reduction is your goal because you don't know how to implement good recoil management, then again, you are covering a problem that already exist. Noticed everyone on here's post when someone ask how to trace their shots? "Oh easy brah, just get a """muzzle break"", you'll be able to shoot a .300 mag and trace your shots!!!"""
If they ain't a geriatric or without medical condition, then they are skipping the basics of marksmanship, and trying to use an edge or buy yourself into the game. Not mastering something. There in lies a big disconnect.

It might not be the popular answer but, it's not untrue.

Next time you are in Idaho, we are going to the range. I'm going to have you shoot a 300rum without a brake and I'll throw in a stock trigger. Then, I will have you shoot a 300rum with a light trigger and a brake and see which you shoot better. We'll take it out to 1000 so the difference is apparent.
I will trust that you don't throw the shots to skew the test

 

[J E Custom]

I will respectfully have to disagree that the gas precedes the bullet. The bullet is long gone before enough gas escapes the muzzle brake to have any effect on the bullet. You are right about the brake normally not making the rifle any more accurate, but it does diminish the harmonics and mostly helps the shooter with his shooting because he is not thinking about what is happening to him the minute he pulls the trigger, and can concentrate on his trigger control,his breathing and his site picture.

J E CUSTOM

 

[dfanonymous]

Next time you are in Idaho, we are going to the range. I'm going to have you shoot a 300rum without a brake and I'll throw in a stock trigger. Then, I will have you shoot a 300rum with a light trigger and a brake and see which you shoot better. We'll take it out to 1000 so the difference is apparent.
I will trust that you don't throw the shots to skew the test

Sure, but I have light triggers and hard triggers as I said, I'm equally as good or bad with each of them (I'm a 3/4 moa shooter any day of the week). I like my low lb two stage triggers, but for safety reasons, I like at least a little weight behind it.

 

[dfanonymous]

I will respectfully have to disagree that the gas precedes the bullet. The bullet is long gone before enough gas escapes the muzzle brake to have any effect on the bullet. You are right about the brake normally not making the rifle any more accurate, but it does diminish the harmonics and mostly helps the shooter with his shooting because he is not thinking about what is happening to him the minute he pulls the trigger, and can concentrate on his trigger control,his breathing and his site picture.

J E CUSTOM

check this out about 4:30. If you watch closely you'll notice a ring of gas before the bullet ever leaves. This is usually the case and can only be seen with a good slow motion camera. We are talking about mili seconds of exposure but none the less.


picture has the bullet just peeking out of the break, the ring of glass before it.

 

[Frog4aday]

I've often wondered if a guy just bought 5 Remington 700 SPS rifles for a total of $2500 and then test fired them all and kept the best shooting one and sold the rest, would they not be farther along than the guy that just spent $2500 on a 'custom rifle' that shot the same group sizes as the 'golden' SPS?

Let's just say the SPS guy, after selling the remaining rifles at a slight loss was into the remaining SPS for $1000. Now he needs a trigger ($200). A better stock? ($350) He gets it glass-bedded by a gunsmith because he's just not into doing it himself? ($150) Now the guy is out $1700 but has an accurate rifle, a stock that fits him, and a sweet trigger. How is the 'custom rifle' guy better off when he paid $850 more to get essentially the same thing?

I don't know the answer. If all one cares about is ACCURACY, then a person could buy a lot of T/C Compass rifles, find the golden child of the bunch (1/2 MOA) and they are done. Sell the rest and live happily ever after.

But we like things that fit us. We like things that reflect our aesthetic. We want a certain barrel length; we want SS vs chrome moly; we like a particular brand of aftermarket trigger; we want a certain type of magazine set up; we want an integral pic rail vs one that screws on; we like a particular type of stock from a specific manufacturer; we want it all assembled by that gunsmith in Albuquerque that does things just right and to perfection. We want a little engraving on it because we've always thought that made a rifle more beautiful and appealing. If you have the money, you get a custom made up to your 'ideal' of what a rifle should be. It may be more accurate than a 'normal' rifle or it might not be. That wasn't the point (if it was, go back to the T/C Compass example above...) Sometimes we just want what we want without compromises. And it makes us happy every time we pick it up, look at it, and shoot it. There is nothing wrong with that.

When we are young and poor, we get what we need to 'make do'. As we get older and the bank account fattens, we get to a point where we don't want to 'make do' any more. We want what we want, just to see what that is like - to have the 'perfect' rifle for once in our lives. That is good. That's fine. Totally understandable.

Guns are good. Accurate guns are better. Customized, accurate guns are a joy. A person has to figure out what they want, what they need, and where they are on life's financial journey to decide what rifle is next for them. It's all good. Nothing wrong with a box-stock rifle or a custom job. They just serve different needs (practically and emotionally.)

 

[J E Custom]

check this out about 4:30. If you watch closely you'll notice a ring of gas before the bullet ever leaves. This is usually the case and can only be seen with a good slow motion camera. We are talking about mili seconds of exposure but none the less.


picture has the bullet just peeking out of the break, the ring of glass before it.

Yes. this is common, but that gas is a very small portion of the total gas (Less than 5 % )and it is propelled in the same direction as the bullet, unlike the gas that comes out of a non braked rifle, the brake diverts most of this gas away from the bullet. Also notice how far it comes out before the bullet is seen. The problem with some brakes is the quality of machining and design. If there are any uneven forces due to misalignment of the brake bore to the rifle bore and if there is an imbalance of the ports volume they can effect the barrel.

Just saying

J E CUSTOM

 

[Varmint Hunter]

Almost every rifle I own is either full custom, semi-custom or has been modified in some way (stock, trigger, bbl) by myself.

However, when I purchased a Browning HC LR rifle that regularly shoots sub .5moa at 400yds I really began thinking about the need for my custom rifles. All of my rifles are used for hunting and none shoot better than the Browning. Several shoot just as good, but none better.

Having full custom rifles for hunting may be necessary for the LRH crowd that honestly hunt at 1,000 yds but not for the 99.9% of us mere mortal hunters.

The poster makes a good point.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

I had previously deleted my response because this thread is wasted talking about muzzle brakes. However I'll get back in it.

I buy customs because I like them. I buy factory guns and there's something I don't like and it's going to cost me a pile to make it right-ish. I don't suggest other people buy customs, frankly I often recommend against it. I don't buy guns to be "smart" I buy them because I want them and a I like them. I can't wait for my new custom to be finished.

 

[fiftybmg]

I will respectfully have to disagree that the gas precedes the bullet. The bullet is long gone before enough gas escapes the muzzle brake to have any effect on the bullet. J E CUSTOM

This matches with what I've observed in all high speed camera shots - the bullet is long gone before the gas somes out, and there is no recoil impulse untill the gas is out. Which raises an interesting point.

I met a machine shop owner that was an avid hunter, but wrenched his shooting shoulder, and couldn't tolerate recoil for many months. He experimented on his rifle, and virtually eliminated the recoil by diverting most of the gas before it got to the muzzle. His conclusion was that it's the gas producing recoil, not the bullet. By diverting the gas flow 90 degrees away from the direction of the bullet travel, the recoil was eliminated.

A lot of people would say that the rearward motion of the rifle is cancelled by the forward motion of the gas, but here's where it becomes interesting - if the bullet is long gone before the gas comes out, and there is no recoil impulse till the gas comes out, does it not show that it's the gas producing recoil, not the m x v of the bullet.

 

[dfanonymous]

Yes. this is common, but that gas is a very small portion of the total gas (Less than 5 % )and it is propelled in the same direction as the bullet, unlike the gas that comes out of a non braked rifle, the brake diverts most of this gas away from the bullet. Also notice how far it comes out before the bullet is seen. The problem with some brakes is the quality of machining and design. If there are any uneven forces due to misalignment of the brake bore to the rifle bore and if there is an imbalance of the ports volume they can effect the barrel.

Just saying

J E CUSTOM

i agree but it's still going to move the barrel by a small amount. It technically effects accuracy. It starts moving things before the bullet has left, even in the milliseconds. Now I've heard it 3 different ways: that it doesn't matter to that it matters a lot. I'm under the impression that it's there, and that it has an effect, but not enough to notice, IF you are straight back behind the rifle and doing what you are suppose to be doing with good fundamentals. It's not the only slow motion footage with proof of concept. People have been compensating for this for years without even thinking about, like using "follow through" and "recoil management" to raising the butt pad closer to the height of the bore.

Now I know your in the break business so I respect your insight, but, whether you have to clock your break because the break has a bad design or simply use follow through, my point is, it there are forces on the bullet/barrel imparted before it leaves the barrel that otherwise wouldn't be there if there was no break. The break can either make it worst, OR does not increase your level of accuracy besides cover up bad recoil management, OR it does not increase accuracy and you have good fundamentals so you have a softer shot and get to save your shoulder if you for those that neglect their dumb bell flys and over head presses.

 

[dfanonymous]

Sample size of two since this last post. The bullet is not LONG GONE before the gas escapes. 2:97

 

[gohring3006]

check this out about 4:30. If you watch closely you'll notice a ring of gas before the bullet ever leaves. This is usually the case and can only be seen with a good slow motion camera. We are talking about mili seconds of exposure but none the less.


picture has the bullet just peeking out of the break, the ring of glass before it.

Is that a ring of gas, or air being displaced that was in the barrel and the ring you see is water vapor from the humidity in the displaced air?