What do you think of this???

[cowboy]

This has become a very hot topic here in Montana and now that it has hit the net - it'll get worse. There are a couple of things that are troubling or disappointing to me on this episode. One is the fact that G&F have taken a NO COMMENT attitude to most questions - I'm sure we can thank the legal profession for that. That leads to just an enourmous amount of speculation. Being as familiar as anyone who has been around our G&F and legal outfitters, as well as suspected illigal outfitters - this is going to be a weak case for the Mt. G&F. Pure speculation on my part - G&F probably were getting complaints from outfitters because this guy was helping sheep hunters for a long long time - maybe legally or illigally - the courts get to guess on the verdict. The 2nd most disappointing thing is the fact that after 39 tries I drew this very tag for this year and now I do not have the opportunity at this ram - but LIFE GOES ON and after I'm done typing this I'm headed to the barn to get ready for a 3 day scouting trip up to this area. As I get older I'm beginning to think that the increased attention to the B&C and P&Y scoring systems may be one of the many downfalls to hunting - if this ram scored 165 it wouldn't even have made the papers - but I'd still be mad as hell and want to know WHY?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

This has become a very hot topic here in Montana and now that it has hit the net - it'll get worse. There are a couple of things that are troubling or disappointing to me on this episode. One is the fact that G&F have taken a NO COMMENT attitude to most questions - I'm sure we can thank the legal profession for that. That leads to just an enourmous amount of speculation. Being as familiar as anyone who has been around our G&F and legal outfitters, as well as suspected illigal outfitters - this is going to be a weak case for the Mt. G&F. Pure speculation on my part - G&F probably were getting complaints from outfitters because this guy was helping sheep hunters for a long long time - maybe legally or illigally - the courts get to guess on the verdict. The 2nd most disappointing thing is the fact that after 39 tries I drew this very tag for this year and now I do not have the opportunity at this ram - but LIFE GOES ON and after I'm done typing this I'm headed to the barn to get ready for a 3 day scouting trip up to this area. As I get older I'm beginning to think that the increased attention to the B&C and P&Y scoring systems may be one of the many downfalls to hunting - if this ram scored 165 it wouldn't even have made the papers - but I'd still be mad as hell and want to know WHY?

PM sent your way

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Weather the Fish & Game is right or wrong in this case we will probably never know. Unless the suspect has huge money to fight this in court, he doesn't stand a chance. The Fish & Game has limitless resources and the greatest Federal prosecutors on their side. The railroad in on. Fish & Game will not back off their position even if they know they are wrong. They would lose too much face.

If one of you guys wanted to go hunting with me, and we made plans for a hunt, and I was the guy driving, you would do what anyone would do and help pay for gas. Technically that constitutes illegal outfitting on my part. If I was to stay above the law, I would have to refuse your offer to help pay the expenses of the trip.

See how easy the set up is? We dealt with this hunting lions with hounds in NW MT. I could not help pay for fuel for my friends that owned the hounds when we went out and hunted, because the Fish & Game was watching them, trying to get them on illegal outfitting. I used to give them dog food.

Yes my past experience plays into my opinion. I would be a fool not to let my past experience guide me in the present.

In my opinion, the best thing for any sportsman to do, is to stay under the radar, and don't get involved in, or do anything that will bring attention to you by the Fish & Game. If they decide that they want you they will get you, and you can't stop them.

MR, for what it is worth, I think there are still some good wardens in the Eastern part of the state, but I think they are the last of the good guys.

Hate to be so cynical, in fact I really don't like it at all, but it is how I feel about the subject.

Steve

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Weather the Fish & Game is right or wrong in this case we will probably never know. Unless the suspect has huge money to fight this in court, he doesn't stand a chance. The Fish & Game has limitless resources and the greatest Federal prosecutors on their side. The railroad in on. Fish & Game will not back off their position even if they know they are wrong. They would lose too much face.

If one of you guys wanted to go hunting with me, and we made plans for a hunt, and I was the guy driving, you would do what anyone would do and help pay for gas. Technically that constitutes illegal outfitting on my part. If I was to stay above the law, I would have to refuse your offer to help pay the expenses of the trip.

See how easy the set up is? We dealt with this hunting lions with hounds in NW MT. I could not help pay for fuel for my friends that owned the hounds when we went out and hunted, because the Fish & Game was watching them, trying to get them on illegal outfitting. I used to give them dog food.

Yes my past experience plays into my opinion. I would be a fool not to let my past experience guide me in the present.

In my opinion, the best thing for any sportsman to do, is to stay under the radar, and don't get involved in, or do anything that will bring attention to you by the Fish & Game. If they decide that they want you they will get you, and you can't stop them.

MR, for what it is worth, I think there are still some good wardens in the Eastern part of the state, but I think they are the last of the good guys.

Hate to be so cynical, in fact I really don't like it at all, but it is how I feel about the subject.

Steve

Steve, I wont argue that FWP has a lot of resources which can unbalance the equation. And I can see were you are skeptical and cynical about everything being brought to light as far as any wrong doing on their part. I also know of I think are some ridiculous cases in the past with some of my own friends that are too long to go into. The judge threw one of these cases out because the guy tried doing the right thing and was being fined for a technicality. On the other hand I have read a number of stories where FWP has busted no-kidding poachers and I know the one experience with me when I made a mistake and could have been rightly fined but they let me slide. I don't think any jury would find anyone guilty for helping pay for expenses. I think any lawyer worth his salt can dig up and subpoena the information he needs to make a case against FWP if there is such a case.

My *speculation* is that cowboy is probably spot on in his assessment of what happened in this sheep case. I think it's likely that this guy(s) was taking business away from outfitters and they complained to FWP. How far Lewton went in the past as far as breaking or not breaking the law concerning outfitting w/o a license or maybe even poaching, I don't know. From what I have read in the article, It sounds like FWP has a very weak case for any serious charges, except maybe the illegal possession and sale of the ram. If he is indeed guilty of that, it raises some flags to me about his activities. If he was setup to that, that's a different story. But like I say, I personally wont make any statement like FWP has committed any crime or should be prosecuted before I have read/heard all the facts. And... I think the author of this article did a poor job of researching a lot of facts like flying and hunting, etc. IMO, it's at best a marginal piece of journalism.

There are a lot of guys out there with a bad taste in their mouth for Fish & Game because of a bad personal experience or experience with a friend. Unfortunately, as was mentioned in another post, the bad experiences throw a reflection on the whole organization. One bad experience can overshadow a lot of good work. My overall perception of MFWP is that they are doing a good job. I will not argue that there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but overall, my experience with them is that they are honest guys doing a tough job and making unpopular decisions. If you were a warden and you found a guy who notched the day but neglected to notch the month on his tag, what you do? And if you were a MWFP agent who was assigned to investigate this case of possible outfitting w/o a license and who knows what else, how would you go about it? BTW, this question isn't just for Steve.

And if there are any poachers reading this, I'll turn you in a heart beat. There is no way me and others should have to do things the hard, more costly and right way while you cheat and get the wall hangers.

Anyway Steve, I agree with staying under the radar. The less opportunity for trouble, the less trouble will come. I wont get them involved unless I absolutely have to.

Regards,

-MR

 

[sdkidaho]

If I didn't know better I would think that MontanaRifleman was me...

I grew up around Law Enforcement of various sorts, part of that being men who were Game Wardens and my Dad being Law Enforcement officer for his district in the Forest Service. Those men have tough jobs as 99.9% of all their clients (clients being the people they deal with day-to-day) are armed in one fashion or another.

The author of the article has the advantage in that he can put the twist on the story as he sees it, knowing full well that the reader has no way of gaining any more information than he does at the time his article is posted. It's quite easy to sway a man with half a story.

I find it hard to condone or condemn their actions, simply because I don't have the full story. Yes, it is most certainly a tragedy that that ram was taken. I couldn't agree more. Beyond that, how can I possibly advocate the officers who were affiliated with this situation be punished for the outcome? There simply isn't enough information for me to make such a decision at this time and I cannot see allowing my emotions to run the show.

Most likely I'll never get a chance at an animal like that in my lifetime, but hopefully neither will anyone else that acts outside the bounds of the law. I'm not a lawyer, nor an LEO - just a guy that doesn't care to jump to conclusions before knowing all the facts.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Steve, I wont argue that FWP has a lot of resources which can unbalance the equation. And I can see were you are skeptical and cynical about everything being brought to light as far as any wrong doing on their part. I also know of I think are some ridiculous cases in the past with some of my own friends that are too long to go into. The judge threw one of these cases out because the guy tried doing the right thing and was being fined for a technicality. On the other hand I have read a number of stories where FWP has busted no-kidding poachers and I know the one experience with me when I made a mistake and could have been rightly fined but they let me slide. I don't think any jury would find anyone guilty for helping pay for expenses. I think any lawyer worth his salt can dig up and subpoena the information he needs to make a case against FWP if there is such a case.

My *speculation* is that cowboy is probably spot on in his assessment of what happened in this sheep case. I think it's likely that this guy(s) was taking business away from outfitters and they complained to FWP. How far Lewton went in the past as far as breaking or not breaking the law concerning outfitting w/o a license or maybe even poaching, I don't know. From what I have read in the article, It sounds like FWP has a very weak case for any serious charges, except maybe the illegal possession and sale of the ram. If he is indeed guilty of that, it raises some flags to me about his activities. If he was setup to that, that's a different story. But like I say, I personally wont make any statement like FWP has committed any crime or should be prosecuted before I have read/heard all the facts. And... I think the author of this article did a poor job of researching a lot of facts like flying and hunting, etc. IMO, it's at best a marginal piece of journalism.

There are a lot of guys out there with a bad taste in their mouth for Fish & Game because of a bad personal experience or experience with a friend. Unfortunately, as was mentioned in another post, the bad experiences throw a reflection on the whole organization. One bad experience can overshadow a lot of good work. My overall perception of MFWP is that they are doing a good job. I will not argue that there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but overall, my experience with them is that they are honest guys doing a tough job and making unpopular decisions. If you were a warden and you found a guy who notched the day but neglected to notch the month on his tag, what you do? And if you were a MWFP agent who was assigned to investigate this case of possible outfitting w/o a license and who knows what else, how would you go about it? BTW, this question isn't just for Steve.

And if there are any poachers reading this, I'll turn you in a heart beat. There is no way me and others should have to do things the hard, more costly and right way while you cheat and get the wall hangers.

Anyway Steve, I agree with staying under the radar. The less opportunity for trouble, the less trouble will come. I wont get them involved unless I absolutely have to.

Regards,

-MR

MR

I am also 100% against poaching, and will turn them in as well. I am not anti FWP. I said it before, I think Eastern MT still has wardens that are reasonable. On the West side of the divide, I don't think there are many left. I have been to the hunter ed classes and listened to the warden (who I know) tell the kids that they should trust him, and call him if they ever make a mistake in the field, even if it is not in his district. He will come to their side and help them. I have never heard of this guy helping anyone. He will wright the ticket, you will pay the fine, and lose your hunting rights for years. The under cover stings that I am familiar with were executed in the grey areas, at best. My business partner had to testify in Fed court in one such case. I can not describe the process exactly, but it was criminal on behalf of the Feds. A man that I know spent several years in prison for something that he had nothing to do with. One of his guides had a client shoot an elk, that may or not have been over a property line, (no fence). They (the outfitter) could not prove it was on the public land side. From my info, it may have been 10' over the line. Then they got him on illegal shipping of the game because he had it shipped to the clients home. Long story short, they ruined his life for no good reason.

Steve

Out side of the law enforcement of the FWP, I think they are great.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Steve,

That is a harsh story. I can see how that would make someone mistrustful and it's because of stories like that and some that I could tell as well, that I will not get the FWP involved unless I absolutely have to. So I do have a sense of cautious mistrust when it comes to LE for the same reason. Some guys consider success making as many busts and getting as many convictions as they can. I dont think they are all like that and if we had no FWP wardens, we would have no fish and game. Maybe you're right about the East-West thing. I dont know enogh to say much about that. I will be interested in seeing what happens with this sheep case.

So how is the GS bullet testing coming along?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Steve,

That is a harsh story. I can see how that would make someone mistrustful and it's because of stories like that and some that I could tell as well, that I will not get the FWP involved unless I absolutely have to. So I do have a sense of cautious mistrust when it comes to LE for the same reason. Some guys consider success making as many busts and getting as many convictions as they can. I dont think they are all like that and if we had no FWP wardens, we would have no fish and game. Maybe you're right about the East-West thing. I dont know enogh to say much about that. I will be interested in seeing what happens with this sheep case.

So how is the GS bullet testing coming along?

pm sent.