What do you think of this???

[statjunk]

That is a tough call for sure. I can see it from both sides.

Tom

 

[dogdinger]

Entrapment with a capital E..... MFWP should be called on the carpet for this by every sportsmans association in the state.The officer involved should be busted down to the lowest possible rank, or better yet fired. This case sounds very similar to a case yrs ago against a sheep hunter who bought the governors tag for the state of oregon. I remember reading about it in one of the major outdoor magazines. it was a case of over -zelous federal fish and wildlife agents who planted a snitch in the camp of the hunter and tried to get him to do something illegal, such as kill a sheep that was in another area, in another state, etc...the hunter was such a stand up guy that he killed an old one-horned ram that would not have made it thru another winter after spending over 100 grand on the tag. they still arrested him on bogus charges and harrassed his whole family.

Dont think these types are not in law inforcement also......Does the name Randy Weaver ring a bell? AJ

 

[Timberbeast7]

Couple of questions...

Do you know all the facts in this case? And if not, just how much about it do you know or think you know?

You said, "What makes MFWP above the law?"... "They have committed a more serious crime than what the "criminals" have been charged with." Can you explain what more serious crime they have committed than what they are charging the other guys with? Or.. any crime at all? I mean actual on the book crimes, not your subjective estimation of a crime.

Do you know for a certain, that these agents lives were not at risk if they refused to make a killing shot the third time? If so, I guess you must have been rigth there with them.

Rushing to judgement?... making conclusions without all the facts?.... hmmmm...

You're kidding, right? If this hunt was illegal...the MFWP agent is the one who POACHED the sheep! That in itself is worth $30,000 in restitution. These 'agents' are not forced to do these jobs, they know they might run into some tough situations. If they can't handle it and do the right thing they should go back to working at Wal-Mart.

Many people have dealt with the Fish and Game. I had dealings with them in Idaho when someone poached a deer on our property in the middle of the night...let me just say we will NEVER call Fish and Game again! To say they are the all-knowing and a model law enforcement agency is a joke.


dogdinger, Randy Weaver came to my mind too.

 

[bigbuck]

The first thought that intered my mind about the agent shooting the ram, was well maybe his life would have been in danger and his life is worth far more than the rams atleast to me. Just think though, how would we feel if an under cover cop had to snort several lines of cocain he would still be in violation of the law wouldn't he? This is a hard one to judge without all the facts.

The sad thing is the fact that many folks will have lost their respect and trust for the Fish and Game officers .

 

[happylilcuss]

To those siding with the fwp.. Really? You are quick to jump to the aide of the fwp siting that he "missed on purpose" and that "His life might have been in danger" Come on. I dont know the facts and neither do you. Whos to say he wasnt just a crappy shot? To the idea his life might have been in danger I call total and utter BS.. He was armed!! If the guy who had already stated he couldnt take money from him because he wasnt a guide was going to kill the cop because he didnt shoot the ram then he seems to be much more of a criminal than has been addressed. And if he is this type of criminal than why did he need the officer in the first place.. He would have just gone out and shot the ram himself and saved himself the 5k he spent to buy it from the fwp cop..

I agree with those that smell entrapment.. I know I dont have all the facts but uncommon sense tells me that this guy was trapped.. As far as what crimes the fwp committed umm hello the guy crossed private property and then killed a ram knowingly having an illegal "guide" show him the way..

One question I have about this case is this. What is the difference from what this guy is accused of to what lots of us do.. We get a call from a buddy and then help him scout the animals and then assist him with his hunt. Then when its over we help him pack out.. And some guys would even be willing to buy the trophy to put in their lodge or there home.. So why is what he did allegedly illegal?

Also the trespassing charges could be dropped if the landowner decided not to press charges..

There are just lots of holes to this story but from what I read I have to agree with the author that the **** cop is more to blame than anyone.. Total abuse of power.. So this is my opinion take it for what its worth.. I am not trying to call anyone out or start anything just expressing my opinion.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

To those siding with the fwp.. Really? You are quick to jump to the aide of the fwp siting that he "missed on purpose" and that "His life might have been in danger" Come on. I dont know the facts and neither do you. Whos to say he wasnt just a crappy shot? To the idea his life might have been in danger I call total and utter BS.. He was armed!! If the guy who had already stated he couldnt take money from him because he wasnt a guide was going to kill the cop because he didnt shoot the ram then he seems to be much more of a criminal than has been addressed. And if he is this type of criminal than why did he need the officer in the first place.. He would have just gone out and shot the ram himself and saved himself the 5k he spent to buy it from the fwp cop..

You need to read people's posts more carefully. Who in this thread is siding with the MWFP??? Let me repeat myself.... there is nowhere near enough information in this article to come to any informed conclusion at all. So therefore let me make this very clear... I am neither siding with or against the MFWP... understood? What I am doing is countering a lot of judgement and opinions based on just about absolutley no information, which IME is very foolish. Ths is why we have trials in our justice system... so all the facts can be studied to come to an INFORMED conclusion. Nothing like judging based on ignorance.

Next... are you aware that being a game warden, especially an undercover agent, is one of the most dangerous jobs there is? Many game wardens have been relocated and given new identities as a result of their work and results. I think it is a little more than ridiculous for you to be sittting at your keyboard, throwing the BS flag at the possibility of this guy's life being in danger. Do you know any of these guys??? Here he is out in the midle of nowhere - have you ever been in the breaks? It is a massive wasteland as big or bigger than a lot of states, with almost no roads, broken with canyons, draws, washes and coulees. If a person wanted to dispose of a body, the breaks would be a good place to do it. Ok, so he was armed... and out numbered 3 to 1... guess he should have got into a firefight so a trophy bighorn didn't get killed. What happens if he refuses to shoot the ram? First, a three year investigation, costing many thousands of dollars goes down the tubes, because the "suspects" will surely know something is amiss. Next, he may end up in a shootout and people may die, including himself. Do you know anything about LE training, especially undercover? Did you read this part of the article?

[According to documents, "It was clear that J. G. must shoot the ram, which was now in close proximity to the hunters, or reveal his true identity." ]

If in the line of duty this guy shoots a sheep to preserve a three year investigaion and possibly avoid bloodshed I *think* he is well within the law of doing so. Do officers break the law when they speed to catch a traffic violator or criminal. If someone's wife went into intense labor, would the husband be charged with speeding if he sped to get to the hospital? Would you like some more scenarios?

I agree with those that smell entrapment.. I know I dont have all the facts but uncommon sense tells me that this guy was trapped.. As far as what crimes the fwp committed umm hello the guy crossed private property and then killed a ram knowingly having an illegal "guide" show him the way..

If you want to agree with the "smell of entrapment", that's fine. As you freely admit, YOU DONT HAVE ALL THE FACTS. But... I personally will leave my "uncommon sense in the closet and wait until I understand the facts and the law better before jumping to conclusions. Maybe it was entrapment and maybe it wasn't. As far as tresspassing... once again, I don't know enough (and I think neither do you or the author of the article who showed himself ignorant about quite a few things) about Montana tresspass laws and what leeway this agent was given to to accomplish his mission to make a judgement on that. That will surely come out in the trial, but it seems that many are too impatient to wait for the justice system work. Let's just lynch 'em. I think a lot of people beleive there was entrapment because of the SLANT of the article which was about 95% opinion and 5% fact. C'mon guys, dont be so easily duped or biased by previous experiences with F&G. Wait for the factas and then make a call. I was once given the bennifit of doubt by some MFWP officers when they could have easily hung me out to dry. They looked at the circumstantial evidence in the field and decided it was an honest mistake. So they aren't always the cold hearted, evil, try to make a bust jerks that some make them out to be. Yeah there are, and are going to be few bad apples.

One question I have about this case is this. What is the difference from what this guy is accused of to what lots of us do.. We get a call from a buddy and then help him scout the animals and then assist him with his hunt. Then when its over we help him pack out.. And some guys would even be willing to buy the trophy to put in their lodge or there home.. So why is what he did allegedly illegal?

Not sure what argument you are making here??? Two wrongs make a right? So far in this article, the only thing wrong these guys did was to tresspass and apparently illegally possess AND sell a game animal (remember the $5000 payment for the ram?) There is of course nothing wrong with going out with a buddy to help him hunt and retrieve game as long as you do it within the law.

Also the trespassing charges could be dropped if the landowner decided not to press charges..

Once again, I really doubt if you know enough about Montana law to make this statement.

There are just lots of holes to this story

Exactley!!! So why are you making any judgement at all???

But from what I read I have to agree with the author that the **** cop is more to blame than anyone..

Ignorance and prejudice love company....

Total abuse of power..

So this is my opinion take it for what its worth.. I am not trying to call anyone out or start anything just expressing my opinion.

You make an aweful lot of accustions and judgements to make a statement like this...

You're kidding, right? If this hunt was illegal...the MFWP agent is the one who POACHED the sheep! That in itself is worth $30,000 in restitution. These 'agents' are not forced to do these jobs, they know they might run into some tough situations. If they can't handle it and do the right thing they should go back to working at Wal-Mart.

No... I'm not kidding... Are you??? So I guess, once agian you know all the facts and the law in this matter. See my above reply to happylilcus. POACHED??? By the agent??? Your argument is very flawed... you imply that since they know the risk they should take undue risk... again, read my reply to previous. So you are saying they should intentionally risk life to preserve the life of a ram, so you can have the opportunity to shoot that ram and hang it on your wall or go work at Wal Mart?????? Wow............

Many people have dealt with the Fish and Game. I had dealings with them in Idaho when someone poached a deer on our property in the middle of the night...let me just say we will NEVER call Fish and Game again! To say they are the all-knowing and a model law enforcement agency is a joke.

So you had dealings with F&G that didn't turn out to your bennifit and that gives you license to mnake a judgenent in this case even though you know just about zip about it. Cut me a break. And who in this thread has implied that MFWP is an "all-knowing and model law enforcement agency"? Go back and reread my post.

dogdinger, Randy Weaver came to my mind too.

Personally, I'll wiat until the results of the trial before I think of Randy Weaver, just like I would wait until the results of the trial before passing judgement on you if the papers came out with stories about you being a sex offender. You're welcome.

Just think though, how would we feel if an under cover cop had to snort several lines of cocain he would still be in violation of the law wouldn't he?

It doesn't matter how we would feel... obviously there are a lot of different feelings about this case. What matter's is the law and the results of the trial.

This is a hard one to judge without all the facts.

Amen...

The sad thing is the fact that many folks will have lost their respect and trust for the Fish and Game officers .

Uhhhh.... only if they allowed themselves to be influenced by a very subjective article, past experiences and prejudice, or... if the trial shows the agent acted wrongly..... In that case, I wont judge other officers based on this officer's actions, just like I wont judge you based on someone elses actions. You're welcome.

-MR

 

[Coyboy]

MR, please, your lecturing on some of the guys speculating, while you're speculating as well. I am by no means wanting a ****ing contest here, but please consider the following.

article stated;
"According to court documents, the investigation began in 2005, and was seeded in the fact that Lewton was "with a number of bighorn sheep tag holders in Montana during the last 10 to 15 years when they were hunting for bighorn sheep." His continued proximity presumably helped arouse suspicion that he was outfitting without a license."

This leads anyone reading the article to believe that the only resonable suspicion the dept. had was outfitting without a lic. So now the officer needs to gather probable cause to make an arrest.

2 choices to get this evidence;
1. Contact the sheep tag holder of the past 10-15 years and get testimonial evidence against the suspect. If they don't talk offer imunity, or a "reward" for tipping off a violator.
2. Shadow suspect until he violates again, when the officer made initial contact, the suspect stated he was doing a fly by for another hunter. Watch wait and arrest on that violation.

Was it necessary to hire the suspect and kill a ram? NO. Was it the easiest way? may-be may-be not. Had the dept. investigated past outfitting suspicions they may have procurred enough evidence for an arrest and interogation, which may have netted a confession. not that they would need it if 5 past clients testified against him.

Were they trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? I'm sure they were, does an arrest for outfitting without a lic. justify the killing of that sheep? NO

If the evidence of any of this "investigation" is determined by the judge to be inadmisable, by the way of entrapment or cohersion, The result will be that the more serious charges of the sale of the animal will likly be dismissed due to "poison fruit" Had they attacked the case from a different angle I'm sure that a more sutible result would have been the outcome.


Nowhere is it stated that the suspect was, or is believed to be a poacher, If there was evidence from past events, it would be easy to obtain. Not many poachers shoot a record class animal, and do not either sell for profit, or brag it up as their legal kill. One trip thru his trophy room and the records of his past sheep tags would prove wrongdoing of the sort had it ever occured. And I am sure after his arrest fish and game searched everything the man has ever owned, and had there been any evidence of such he would be up on those charges as well.

Is this guy guilty? most likly.
Will he be convicted? good question, wait and see.

 

[Timberbeast7]

MR,

Do you work for the MFWP? You didn't shoot a Booner sheep in the Missouri breaks last fall, did you.......?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MR, please, your lecturing on some of the guys speculating, while you're speculating as well. I am by no means wanting a ****ing contest here, but please consider the following.

Coyboy, I have a lot of respect for you and the vast majority of members of LRH, including the guys who I have "lectured"so please keep that in mind as I respond. Not looking for a ****ing contest either, but if folks are going to make statements, rebutal is fair play.

If you have noticed, my main beef here is about coming to conclusions without information. This is and has always been one of my pet peeves and is rampant in this thread. I may have made a speculation about one or two things, but I haven't made any pre- judgements. Maybe the "suspects are guilty and maybe they're not, and maybe the agent(s) are guilty and maybe they're not and maybe they're both guilty or not??? Speculation is fine as long as it is defined as speculation. Prejudgement without facts on the other hand.... need I say more?

I have read that this agent is guilty because of other people's past experiences with F&G, becuase he "poached" a ram, because he "tresspassed", etc., etc, when not one of these statemnts is backed up with a shred of knowledge of the facts of this case or the law. What has them going is an emotional article void of facts and details that touches a pre-dispossed chord of mis-trust for F&G.

article stated;
"According to court documents, the investigation began in 2005, and was seeded in the fact that Lewton was "with a number of bighorn sheep tag holders in Montana during the last 10 to 15 years when they were hunting for bighorn sheep." His continued proximity presumably helped arouse suspicion that he was outfitting without a license."

This leads anyone reading the article to believe that the only resonable suspicion the dept. had was outfitting without a lic. So now the officer needs to gather probable cause to make an arrest.

OK now, I'll repeat myself... it is well known that poaching in the breaks is a problem. If you should ever visit this vast desolate land you can see why it can be. Trying to find poachers in this country is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. So let's say you are a MFWP agent... how would you combat poaching in this country?

You're suggestions....

2 choices to get this evidence;
1. Contact the sheep tag holder of the past 10-15 years and get testimonial evidence against the suspect. If they don't talk offer imunity, or a "reward" for tipping off a violator.
2. Shadow suspect until he violates again, when the officer made initial contact, the suspect stated he was doing a fly by for another hunter. Watch wait and arrest on that violation.

#1, A possibility, but not a likely one. We are both specualting on this one.

#2 Shadow someone in a small Eastern Montana town where everyone knows everyone else's business? Nahhhh. Watch and wiat? Sorry, that wont work. They wont be anywhere where they can be easily observed without spotting the observers. Shadow someone in the Missouri Breaks? Not a chance.... I'll take you hunting in the breaks sometime, you'll know what I mean.

Was it necessary to hire the suspect and kill a ram? NO.

You're opinion, which I think you should reserve until you know all the facts.

Was it the easiest way? may-be may-be not. Had the dept. investigated past outfitting suspicions they may have procurred enough evidence for an arrest and interogation, which may have netted a confession. not that they would need it if 5 past clients testified against him.

It's you're speculation that they didn't investigate.... Do you really think any of the past clients would cooporate, and loose their ram? Mine is watching me from the wall as I type. If they had much evidense against any of these guys (if they did anything wrong), I would think it wouldn't be too hard to persuade them to cooperate. So c'mon now, why dont you really sink yourself into the scenario.

Were they trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? I'm sure they were,

TOTALLY your specualtion. Maybe they were and maybe not. Based on my little bit of understanding of the problem, I think it's very likely that they thought they may have a lead on some poachers. Then again, maybe these were over zealous agents looking for results, credit and promotion or whatever.

does an arrest for outfitting without a lic. justify the killing of that sheep? NO

Hmmmm... not sure you caught the possible justification for killing this ram... to preserve a three year investigation and the resultant possibility of curbing poaching in the breaks and/or to avoid bloodshed. Do you think bloodshed is worth not killing this ram? How about the possibility that thes guys might be responsible foir the illegal taking of numerous trophy rams? Sounds to me like they knew just exactley where to find this big critter. sounds to me like they could put just about anyone one a BIG bighorn. Specualtion of course.

If the evidence of any of this "investigation" is determined by the judge to be inadmisable, by the way of entrapment or cohersion, The result will be that the more serious charges of the sale of the animal will likly be dismissed due to "poison fruit" Had they attacked the case from a different angle I'm sure that a more sutible result would have been the outcome.

No argument here... I've already said that I wasn't impressed with MFWP's plan/approach to this opperation... based on what little I know.

Nowhere is it stated...

There is a whole lot of stuff that isn't stated.

...that the suspect was, or is believed to be a poacher, If there was evidence from past events, it would be easy to obtain.

Not necessarily, and if the poacher had much smarts, he would be able to dodge arrest and conviction for a while. It took years nd years to get hte evidense to send Al Capone to prison for tax evasion. He committed a lot worse crimes.

Not many poachers shoot a record class animal, and do not either sell for profit, or brag it up as their legal kill. One trip thru his trophy room and the records of his past sheep tags would prove wrongdoing of the sort had it ever occured. And I am sure after his arrest fish and game searched everything the man has ever owned, and had there been any evidence of such he would be up on those charges as well.

I dont know the habits of these guys. A legal Montana bighorn sheep requires a MFWP plug to be placed in one of the horns and it must be reported within a certain amount of hours of the kill. How someone might get around this I can only specualate.

Is this guy guilty? most likly.
Will he be convicted? good question, wait and see.

We will see what we will see.

I hope noone thinks I am niave as to the possible corruption of LE officers. I am experiencing it now. Last week one of my sons was riding a motor scooter to work and passed a guy in a pickup (in Illinois) and the guy got aggitated and started chasing him and trying to run him off the road. A sherrif's deputy saw this and decided to end it by placing himself headon, turning into my son's lane of traffice while he is fleeing the man who is chasing him. The deputy ran head on into my son resulting in broken bones and internal bleeding (spleen) and as my son was gasping for air the officer drew his weapon, finger on trigger, gun in his face, and said get the **** on the ground. No lights or siren in an unmarked car. The deputy lied about his actions, according to my son AND a witness. The deputy was also heard to complain about the damage to the hood and grill of his car whle my son was lying on the ground. He nearly died of internal bleeding in the ER. My blood is boiiling while I type this. This is a bad cop, but I dont judge other cops by him because I know some good cops.

Let's see what the facts tell us....

-MR

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MR,

Do you work for the MFWP? You didn't shoot a Booner sheep in the Missouri breaks last fall, did you.......?

Timberbeast,

What's the matter.... you cant speak to the subject?

No, never have and do not work for MFWP.

I shot my Booner ram in the breaks in 89. [EDIT] I was workign for the USAF at the time.

Now my question for you... are you a poacher? Poachers sure dont like F&G officers do they....

chill dude....

 

[Coyboy]

MR, I pray for your son's speedy recover, That is a very unfortunate thing and most likely worse than what is being discussed here.

 

[Timberbeast7]

MR, the title of the post is "what do you think of this"...people are posting their opinions on the matter. Why do you feel obligated to refute every aspect of people's opinions, while in the process posting your own opinions? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hope your son makes swift and full recovery.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Coyboy, thank you for your sentiment and prayers for my son. A lot of people have been praying for him. He is recovering well as can be expected and is expected to be going home soon for the rest of his recovery after being in the hospital since a week ago this past Tuesday, 5 days in ICU. The only reason I mentioned this story is so you all would understant that I too have good reason to mistrust LE. But the facts are that not all LE officers are bad and not all are good. Most are probably a mixture of both.

Thanks again,

-MR

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MR, the title of the post is "what do you think of this"...people are posting their opinions on the matter. Why do you feel obligated to refute every aspect of people's opinions, while in the process posting your own opinions? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Hope your son makes swift and full recovery.

Timberbeast, no flame intended here, but why do you feel obligated to make your statements? We are all expressing our views, and if someone makes the statement...

"They committed a more serious crime than what they have charged the "criminals" with."

...is it unreasonable to ask this person to back up their accusation with some facts, like exactley what crime did "they" commit? I think there have been a lot of bogus statements made in this thread, so I have refuted them. Is that unreasonable? I probably could have used a different tone but like I said before, people jumping to conclusions without facts, especially when those conclusions include accusatuions and harsh actions, is one of my pet peeves and I have very little patience for it.

Thank you also for your sentimant for my son, I appricaite it.

-MR